People keep talking about “Federalizing the National Guard” and now you’ve got other States pledging their NG to Texas in defiance of the Supreme Court (see image).
So is this what CW2 looks like?
P.S. I’m a Brit
Minnesota looking across our western border like
IKR? Laughing my ass off at the Dakotas and Montana. Bruhs, you have a population of less than a million apiece, sit down.
I honestly don’t think the active duty and national guard units would be willing to fight each other. A lot of guard guys are former AD and AD gets supplemented by guard all the time. Some missions they even work side by side with active guard positions.
The states leveraging their guard units like this strikes me as highly presumptuous.
AD
What’s AD? Army Division?
I don’t know if anybody answered your question, lemmy is weird about replies deleted or not showing. AD is Active Duty, which is anyone in the federal component of the military i.e. not guardsmen. “Active” means full-time, and most guardsmen are one-weekend a month, so they are not active. It’s a little fuzzy, because if a guardsman is on full time orders, depending on where the money is coming from, it could be called AGR, or Active Guard Reserve, but they are not technically Active Duty (AD).
All you really need to know is that AD is just the Big Army or Big Air Force, paid for and run by the federal government, and the national guard is distinct from AD because of split loyalty to state and federal govt, and they are usually paid by the state. Otherwise, same regulations, same uniforms, same bad leadership.
Same initial training too. I went to basic training and tech school with a lot of guardsmen.
Active duty.
The feds
I was in the Army NG for 6 years. The president is still Ultimately the top of the chain of command and we swear the same oath to the constitution.
I just want to throw out there that it’s just not really like that. There is no chance of civil war from inside the army in this manner. The big green weenie gets everybody in the end.
Edit: like for example, we all wear the same unfiroms, they both do US Army on the front. They have the same MOS (military occupational specialty) We receive the same training, at the same places, and both go to overseas for deployments as well.
Usually, you get deployed twice during a 6 year contract for the National Guard. When they aren’t deployed the NG trains at home bases in their states and sometimes in large Active Military Bases for Various reasons. So it’s all very much intertwined.
Guard units are also only under state control until they’re not. By the book anyway the DoD(?) can say “okay you’re activated under federal orders now, so you are now active duty, do this instead”.
Not only that, but a lot of the NG equipment comes from federal contracts. Good luck getting tank parts and missiles once yours are all gone.
NG units are usually paid from federal dollars, if NGB says knock it off the top brass at their state JFHQ will comply because most of them don’t want to lose federal recognition. There may be a handful of extremists in the ranks but the vast majority of NG members aren’t going to be insurrectionists, they just want to get their drill check, if the checks stop coming they will too. Most states are extremely reluctant to pay for state active duty so I bet this goes away once NGB pulls funds.
Texas governor: fire on US soliders to give me a political win
National Guard: no.
I’d love to think this is true but when I was active back in the day there were a LOT of right wing militant nuts. I can only assume that’s skyrocketed in the years since.
IDK but I got shut down when I asked a few weeks ago.
I’m sorry that happened to you, and you’re right, all signs are pointing to a second civil war in the U.S.
what does that even mean?
The states are beginning to openly disrespect the authority of the federal government. Texas Gov. Abbott directly said he believes Texas State law supercedes federal law. There is no basis for that position in law; the law dictates exactly the opposite. If Texas refuses to respect the authority of the United States of America and the rulings of the Supreme Court, the only way to resolve that is civil war.
okay bud but what does “civil war” mean, here, now?
When people say “civil war” they mean a lot of things
i’m not sure what it means, but we do have a lot of national military stationed here. so that’s a factor.
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Look how the military treated people in Iraq
Better than the police treats people in the US?
Joel? Is that you?
There is a fine limit on malarky, upon exceeding their malarky quota we glass texas.
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Are you Joel? I know you!
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It’s me Joel!! Don’t you recognise me?
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That#'s right! You remembered. From the restaurant in town. How are you?
i keep seeing comments like this. i want to point out texas has a LOT of poor and uninsured people, but the state economy is pretty decently sized with a lot of business investment.
that’s not really a bad thing for preventing secession. you think those with energy and tech money want their shit fucked up by Abbott and MAGA?
edit - speeling
If you look at history it takes more than this. I doubt people would go to war over illegal immigrants.
It’s the same as the last civil war. One side can’t bear to live in a world where brown people are treated the same as white people.
A lotta people’s shitty 2nd amendment logic is about to be tested.
I mean, all a politician has to do is say “I will oppose Bidens open border policy” and they’ll win an election.
All Biden has to do is not allow an open border with Mexico, and he might have a chance of getting re-elected.
Republicans are literally torpedoing a bipartisan bill because they don’t want Biden to get any good news on the border
But let’s keep complaining how Biden isn’t doing anything
He claims this legislation will give him the authority he needs to do something. Do you really believe the president of the United States doesn’t have the authority to take action in securing our borders?
I’d like to see the text of this bill, because I don’t believe the White House is incapable of taking action and actually needs additional powers.
I think the President should be able to do ANYTHING HE wants! That’s EXACTLY what the Founders intended!
You think the white house needs additional powers?! Please elaborate
Read it again
Nah, just giving Texas back to Mexico.
Ain’t no way this is actually going to happen, any attempt at succession will be put down by the much larger national military. There will be no civil war.
If any deep red states try to leave, why not just let them?
If they vote on it Brexit style it will be one thing. If 51% of the population shows up and votes 51% to leave we can consider it. Wait until that happens.
It’s violating the will of the people. They’re removing people from their country without consent or notice; no referendum nor opportunity to leave.
Eh there won’t be an organized civil war of large standing armies, but I can definitely see the Redneck militias doing some damage. If it dragged on long enough they could theoretically get organized somehow.
I really doubt that the politicians in the GOP states want a Civil war though, it is gonna be hard to extract wealth from the poor if the whole system explodes.i also notice nobody mentions the possibility that cartels could try to take advantage of any significant unrest in some states. i doubt states or feds want that mess.
They will refuse to hear this, Texans do believe they are unique little butterflies. They don’t understand that after the Civil War the Federal Government solidified its hold on the states. Probably for the better.
That’s a bit of an overgeneralization, buddy. I’ve lived in Houston most of my life and almost nobody I’ve known actually thinks like this.
You are right. Its not all. Mostly salt of the earth types.
No, the civil war 2 looks like mass shootings and terrorists attacks. It started with the Oklahoma City Bombing. Liberals just refuse to acknowledge it’s existence.
There’s an argument to be made, though, tha the US has always been in a state of civil war. The Spartans would symbolically declare war on their slaves every year. That’s kind of what slavery is: a constant war on a portion of the population. That’s aside from the whole genocide of native folks. Since the 13th amendment didn’t actually ban slavery, it never ended and if you look at standing rock, you know that whole native genocide thing never ended either.
Then when you contextualize all this with stuff like the Red Summer, you realize the recent violence is just the normal terrorism that white supremacists do every now and then to get control back. There probably won’t be a war with two side, more just escalation violence from one side leading to the systematic murder a huge chunk of the population. The question is if it will be officially sanctioned like the Holocaust, or continue with the ad-hoc stochastic terrorism like the Rwandan genocide and the Serbian ethnic cleansing.
I expected more snipers, bombings, and attacks on infrastructure but if Trump wins it’s definitely gas chambers.
Democrats are too afraid of “real war” to actually do something about this. If they did they might have to deal with the mess for real and open themselves up to political challengers from the left.
A good portion of Democrat voters are boomers who created this reality by selling off everybody’s futures to corporations. It’s not that they’re afraid, this is precisely what they had in mind.
This all have a strong brexit vibe, but taken to the next level in a very MURICA! style.
Or USSA 1991
Highly unlikely this is what the civil war would be like. It’s not a state v state thing necessarily although that might be a small part of it. In the first civil war, the south unified and its people largely supported the war, except their slaves. It’s unlikely something like that will happen again. It’s not impossible but unlikely.
What is much more likely is rural v city. Even in red states, cities are blue and will often vote for blue policies. Rural areas are where things get dicey. They’ve been largely left behind by the surge in industry and general expansion of the capitalist economy we currently have (they’ve had a lot of businesses (including grocery stores) close because more people are leaving, and their rural towns are frequently having their hospitals close leaving large swaths of areas where the nearest hospital is an hour away). As such, they’ve got a grudge against the cities. What’s likely to happen is rural counties and their local governments trying to cut off their food supply, starving the cities to win the battle. There’s tons more possibilities, but this one I think is the one that’s got the highest likelihood.
Another possibility that is scary, but is highly dependent on the party of the people in power, is the government using their power to actually strike the cities, like in Syria where Assad bombed and used chemical weapons on his own people. Syria is actually a pretty good example of what more modern civil wars are like, or can be like. Governments v rebels and militias, and cities v rural (although there’s much less rural land in Syria).
If you’re interested, the podcast It Could Happen Here has a great first season where they go over possible disasters including a civil war and a pandemic (it was actually made in 2019 so before covid). It’s really helpful and can teach a lot, especially for an outsider from across the pond. It also does a lot better job giving an explanation and actual sources.
Hope this helps since it didn’t seem like you were getting a real answer.
The geographical separation of slave states by an actual border allowed the first Civil War to take place on a stage perfectly suited for traditional warfare. North/South division and the formal joining of the Confederacy by state governments kept it all straightforward. Point South and tell the generals “Go.”
It definitely won’t be that simple again.
I had to stop listening to ICHH it gave me way too much anxiety and was just too stressed back when i listened in 2020. I’ve since taken up to instead listen to BTB and cool people who did cool stuff off the same network. Monsters that are usually dead and people who kick ass make me feel better.
Another thing the world ought to know is that the folks who are identified by “red” and “right” in America are in the minority.
Significantly so.
However our voting system uses geography / land as a modifier so while there are less of them they occupy a larger land mass and have an outsized vote strength because of that.
When total votes in a state can be split 45-55 but the delegates go 90-10 there is a problem
Another fun thing about that is that most folks who identify “red” or “right” actually aren’t paying enough attention to know that. Go ask them, they think people like them make up 70% or more of the country. If they do try to activate their little civil war they are going to find themselves very quickly surrounded by folks who do not like them at all, as their expected 200-million strong army ends up actually only being 1.5 million people spread out over 30,000+ square miles. Watching the realization dawn on them might actually even be fun if it weren’t a herald of Troubles for America.
Another thing the world ought to know is that the folks who are identified by “red” and “right” in America are in the minority.
Significantly so.
This isn’t accurate. In 2020, 29% of voters identified as Republican, 33% as Democrat, and 34% as independent. There certainly were more Democrats, but only by a 5% margin.
Playing up exaggerated differences between the number of Democrats and Republicans and emphasizing the “we outnumber you” rhetoric is extremist and should be avoided. It makes you a part of the problem.
What is much more likely is rural v city.
Isn’t it even more likely trump disciples vs reasonable people?
This is oversimplifying the problem. Democrats from urban areas have failed for decades to adequately address the needs and concerns of rural voters. When one party ignores you (and often speaks of you with open contempt), it’s a no-brainer that you would be inclined to vote for the party that caters to your concerns. The Democrats handed rural voters to Trump on a golden platter.
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I also recommend It Could Happen Here
The disunited states has gone post-truth. When two sides vying for power don’t agree on the nature of reality, ie immigration vs invasion, I don’t see how there can be any agreement or good faith negotiation. So how can the result be anything but war? Whoever invented the notion of alternative facts has a lot to answer for.
