I swear, every time most of the time I see someone being particularly rude, ignorant, and inappropriate on a post (usually political in origin, or they swing it to being political) I click on their profile and see it has been created that same day.
They are only there to sow discord. Only to piss people off. Idk if we can just report them (for what?) but I’d like to try exposing them before responding and interacting…
I am guilty of gobbling up the bait. I’ve started looking at profiles of people that piss me off exceptionally and noticed they’re burner bot loser accounts.
I guess i just want to say I’ve noticed it!
Voyager has a setting to show a baby emoji next to the name of a user if their account is less than a month old and an account age. Probably one of the best features I’ve ever seen for immediately recognizing troll accounts.
For now, because Lemmy is relatively new. There’s a reason many bot farms run accounts that are unassuming, “normal” people. Accounts that are established have value. They can then sell those accounts to another group who needs to sew discord. The older Lemmy is, the less useful the new account icon will be.
There’s already an issue on lemmy-ui for it.
Love this comment from that GitHub page…
This is urgently needed for the upcoming elections.
The only problem though is a lot of time astroturfers/bots create accounts and then just let them sit idle for 6-9 months before using them.
Maybe you could combat that by deleting inactive accounts that seemed to never have been used.
But they can get around that. It’s a never ending battle against that kind of stuff.
Yeah exactly.
The filtering would had to be more sophisticated, instead of an age by date, maybe an age by number of posts within an amount of time, etc.
But astroturfers/bots can work with that too, to a certain extent.
Is voyager an app like Sync?
Yes, and no ads either.
Yes
nice. would love something like that on a web interface.
Voyager started as a progressive web app. vger.app. I prefer it to Lemmy’s interface even on computer.
I love that he called it “vger”
👀
I’m a big dumb. I’ve been using the Voyager app for a while and knew about the web app but never clicked I could use that on desktop.
I find at least one commenter with a new account on almost every post with more than 5 comments.
They tend to be negative.
Think I’m going to start welcoming them to Lemmy, note their activity to date, and ask them nicely what might have brought them to join. (If they are real, glad to have them, but I have found most Lemmy members came here from Reddit, not to make accounts to post in News or Politics or such places trolls would like.)
Until Lemmy updates to identify new accounts ala Voyager, I think that would be helpful to inform other users they may be talking to a troll.
There are approximately 433k accounts but only 48k Monthly Active Users.
It’s hard to believe that many of posts and comments are often the newest accounts, and though they will change tactics to using older accounts, at least it’s more work for them.
I recommend others do the same.
So, now that you spend half your time on Lemmy being a narc, have you considered moving on to actually contributing meaningful comments and content, or are you content with just being a stool-pigeon that harasses new users?
(Checks your comment history)
Ah, so just the same comment over and over again for weeks on end. Fucking spammer…
Hey look, a new very active account, talking shit about… Hmmm…
Nazis, trump, cops, Russians, gays, etc!
Yeah, people like you are why I point it out new accounts.
And from the way you communicate rudely here, to me for saying “Welcome” to new members, illustrates a great point that you don’t seem to be someone worth talking to, likely by anyone.
Have a great day, and looking forward to Welcoming your next alt.
deleted by creator
Also worth pointing out that the best way of reading this thread is looking at all of the removed comments in the modlog. Lol.
Now I’m really curious. How do you read those comments?
On Kbin and Lemmy instances, the link is called “Modlog” at the bottom of the page in browser. I don’t use any Fedi apps so I don’t know what it looks like there.
You can see all of the deleted comments every day. I recommend everyone to look at the Modlog at least occasionally. You get a real pulse on how each community is moderated and you can make a better informed decision on where you actually want to hang out.
There’s a link at the bottom of each and every Lemmy page.
You can search by community/post/user.
I absolutely love the mod log. Some days I just read through that instead of the regular Lemmy posts.
It’s not just an entertaining read, it’s a valuable resource to look at to determine if mods in certain communities are over-moderating. Imo for months, mods in many of the largest communities are far overstepping their roles and not just “moderating” their communities but actively censoring opinions they don’t like.
If you don’t like it, then start your own fed; til then, no one gives a fuck about your backseat moderation
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It’s not just an entertaining read, it’s a valuable resource to look at to determine if mods in certain communities are over-moderating.
Agree. Honestly that’s where I find the entertainment from, actually looking at how the mods actually do their moderating, the kind of reasons why they give.
It’s interesting to compare the moderation that happens between the different communities too.
Is this something publicly accessible or do you need to be a mod or host an instance?
Just go to the instance website and there will be a link to the modlog usually at the bottom of the page.
You can put /modlog after the instance URL, e.g. https://lemmy.world/modlog
I just did and some of the stuff is wild. Not gonna quote or reference anything for my account safety, don’t ask.
This is so fucking good. I was so sick of shadowbans and not knowing what went down on reddit.
Only banned once because i supported ukraine to much, doing pretty good.
Guess that was probably on an lemmy.ml community?
My only complaint with the modlog is that it doesn’t say which moderator performed the action. It just says “mod”, so there’s no way for a community to make sure particular mods aren’t just going rogue.
The Modlog is (or should be, in theory) accessible on any Lemmy/Kbin instance. However, it is on an instance by instance basis whether the Modlog shows full information for each moderator action. Like you said, some instances will only show “mod” but others will provide the names.
To be honest, I haven’t been looking at the Fediverse a whole lot lately, so I can’t recommend which ones are the best and most transparent. At one point in time, the Lemmy.world Modlog did provide full info but it seems that they have changed that in recent months.
Also, certain instances have definitely started to selectively federate mod logs for whatever reason. .ml being the worst offender. It’s a good idea in theory, but it’s already being abused.
Two downvotes for just supplying a link to a comment that answers the question, so that copy/paste is not done?
I guess we’re not supposed to be helpful anymore. /shrug
Yeap… Lemmy is getting to Reddit form faster than expected
How long til Lemmy hivemind?
Honestly? Probably a couple months or so.
It already exists it just depends on your instance.
Plenty of group think moving through posts and competing with other group think.
Couple more rounds of enshitification I presume. The IPO got me to move. I guess it wasn’t fun posting on reddit anymore now that I’m making spez money
Is reddit as censored as the fediverse?
Lemmy and mastodon are quite useless.
You can have the same core views as someone on lemmy and mastodon but if you point out a hypocritical post you will get blocked or your post removed. Being a hateful hypocritical person is okay but if you point out someone else doing it its not okay. A loop of hypocrisy.
Redit is SIGNIFICATLY more censored than lemmy
It is? I’m not a big social media person so I don’t know. I do know, that I’ve seen highly opposing view points for touchy topics on reddit many times and those posts get many up or down votes. Sometimes I see a post is locked from further discussion etc, but the posts are still there allowing everyone to see all view points.
But on mastadon/ lemmy all I’ve seen so far are hateful hypocrites who instantly block/ban/remove your post etc. If you fully agree with someone, except for the hypocritical part of there post and you echo that back to them, blocked/post removed.
Wonder what you said three hours ago to get banned from the Dunk Tank. You’re really lucky the modlog doesn’t elaborate on what it was, or I’d post the receipt here.
The person who makes Hyperland was blacklisted by freedesktop (Linux stuff) over saying something transphobic as far as I understand from a glance.
They made a post in response in which they said ‘This other person threatened to sexually assault people as revenge for something small. I’m not the only person deserving of shame’. I’m sure there’s more to this story, I don’t care.
A hexbear user in response to this story wrote there’s a false equivalence between a trans person calling for violence in a hyperbolic tweet and this app developer using their platform to spread anti-trans hate. I think, again, I do not care about the actual story, Fictitiousexistence’s comment doesn’t need context to be bad.
@fictitiousexistence@lemmy.ml replied with:
This leads me to believe that anyone who disagrees with Lyude is a Transexual Nobeards shithead.
Yeah nah, fuck that guy then. All the modlog had was that he’d got banned; but the comment didn’t have a removal message in the modlog, so I didn’t see that-- that’s fuckin gross.
On Reddit you will be banned if you say something the mods don’t like and they take personally. And it can get you banned off the sire permanently too.
Often commenting on one thread will ban you from other subreddits entirely by bot. Plus all the same garbage of not being able to say words that are considered naughty or no-no words from people who think it makes them superior are all over reddit.
I once got banned from a “leftist” subreddit cause I pointed out that a post was right wing disinformation and the mod responded that they agreed with it so it couldn’t be propaganda and then spent like an hour yelling at me in my messages about how it was a starter leftist sub and that I didn’t belong if I wasn’t going to agree.
But honestly the world is full of the dumbest little shits and everyone everywhere has a quirk and Lemmy is full of people full of themselves and thinking their shit don’t stink. That and moderately well off liberals that can’t handle being told they are wrong because they “are well educated and know how things work”.
I do think it’s insane how quick people are to block and how even more empty it makes the fediverse, interesting that you are dealing with people that also have the ability to delete your replies though as that’s not really a thing on Lemmy so maybe a mastodon thing?
乁( •_• )ㄏFederal agents always rip the mask off when you point out they’re being fascists. I remember this one time I was in a liberal subreddit and this one guy started doing nazi talking points so I called them out and reported them. Suddenly I got a very threatening message in my DMs from their mods telling me that I better watch myself or there was going to be consequences then next thing I knew the subreddit shut down and has been down ever since. At the time I was floored that such a seemingly progressive place could just go hardcore nazi just out of the blue but now that I’m politically educated I now know that liberalism is little more than the larval form of outright nazism.
Honestly prior to the api protest I had somewhat good communications with mods, and by just following the only rule, which is behave, I got around some rule and had enough clarifications about them. The new mods that replaced them are a mess. Even the power mods of the past like that turtle person pale in comparison to what I’ve seen. They don’t even know modding tools such as warnings, temporary bans. It’s like touching a md account for the first time got them power hungry like never before.
Don’t forget about shadowbans that attempt to make it seem like you aren’t banned when your entire account is hidden without your knowledge.
Oh God right! The weirdest darkest form of mild censorship.
I can decide if it’s clever or very fucked up.
I think it’s just very messed up, ultimately it doesn’t work against the real nasty people Reddit claims to be going up against because those people have bot armies that monitor their astroturf accounts so they know when the shadowbans happen and dump the account to move on to the next ones. No this system disproportionately affects the people who aren’t expecting it and probably don’t even deserve it.
Also for braindead spammers it’s actually a terrible strategy because spammers’ purpose is both to annoy users and chew through your resources, even if they are shadowbanned and uploading multiple gigabytes of white noise they aren’t annoying people but they are chewing through bandwidth and CDN storage. IMO that’s not feasible long term, and wouldn’t even be initially feasible for most Fediverse services, hence why most basically just don’t do it.
Whoops. Maybe I just mean the fediverse in general not “lemmy” in particular. Sorry, it’s all confusing.
i have only ever had one post of mine be deleted, and that was a post talking about suicide. I don’t exactly agree with the deletion, but hey i don’t make the rules, it’s their community.
In my experience, Lemmy is not as censored as Reddit
You can disagree here, as long as you keep it civil, all is good
Lmao. I went 14 years on Reddit without getting a single site ban, and barely lasted 14 days on .ml without getting banned for very controversial statements about, eg, that time Russia shot down a civilian airliner in Ukraine. And pointing out that the US revolution generally didn’t involve much mass rape. And calling out genocide denial on hexbear. And then mocking these petty bans. I’m sure this will get me another one.
Lmao, thank you mods for proving my point that .ml is heavily censored.
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The rule against mild criticism of the admins? It can’t be censorship if there are rules, right?
removed by mod
Lmao. I went 14 years on Reddit without getting a single site ban, and barely lasted 14 days on ml
Not a metric but ok
Rest of keyboard diarrhea
Again, not what you say but how you say it
I’m sure this will get me another one.
Sounds like you are proud of them …
I think that one is better off not discussing these topics online at all.
I have never seen anything good come out of it, anywhere. Ever
People don’t report shit, then complain stuff goes unmoderated.
Like, you don’t have to report every single comment a troll makes, but at least report one so a mod looks at it.
Edit:
Here’s a good example. An account I have blocked replied to me. If they go into a sub I moderate and start acting like a jackass, I’ll never know because I have them blocked.
The only way I’d see it, is if someone reported it.
Here’s a good example. An account I have blocked replied to me. If they go into a sub I moderate and start acting like a jackass, I’ll never know because I have them blocked.
The only way I’d see it, is if someone reported it.
This is why, when I was a reddit moderator (r/Firefox), I never blocked users even if they were absolute trash to me. I always thought of that as a severe limitation of the platform, there should be a setting to show blocked user’s content (labelled as such) in communities you moderate.
Lol i see their downvote. that one really hates you
People do report stuff, get yelled at by the mods, and then get banned by the admins for abuse of the reporting system, or mod abuse for getting clarification.
So if you do what you are supposed to, you get banned.
Would be better if moderation was actually taken seriously and the admins don’t excuse terrible mod behavior.
Those sound like extremely edge cases and are not a good reason to not justify not reporting anything.
Moderators are volunteers and most of them simply want to make their communities better, so they do take these reports seriously. Plus at this stage Lemmy lacks robust tools to help them accomplish this. The very least general users can do is flag problem comments and accounts to help them out.
There’s posts about mods complaining about users using the report button as a “super downvote” you go to those posts, there are people legit trolling in them and the content is still there.
The excuse is, Lemmy needs content, so they are very loose and liberal in applying moderation like that against users that add content.
I’ve had an admin defend a mod when I reported them with “they aren’t as bad as some of the others”. So Lemmy admins know they have moderation issues, if they fix it, they lose their content and their free labor. So they just turn a blind eye and let the mods do what they want, which is quite frankly nothing. And when asked they report you to the admins. They really only deal with illegal stuff unfortunately, since they have to or they can get in shit personally.
Trolls unfortunately add content, which is desperately needed. Some communities deal with it, larger let it go for discussion and metrics sake. Lemmy isn’t perfect, and we should be able to discuss its darker side.
Are you talking about Lemmy.ml specifically or Lemmy in general?
Ugghh that’s a good point, this was .world for admins, but the moderation issues seem to be non instance specific.
Also makes me wonder if some of the trolling is dealt with and its federation issues then…
Still, the amount of trolling comments, and users being banned for pretty frivolous things isn’t a good look.
Trolling is simply noise and garbage to dispose of when it becomes an attack on the person.
Trolling doesn’t ONLY require personal attacks…. That’s the issue, mods only step in when things progress too far and have reached that point….
There’s also a fine line between legitimate trolling and having unpopular or dissenting opinion. I’ve seen plenty of threads where 2 or more people are arguing about a given topic, and while the unpopular opinion isn’t being inflammatory or breaking any rules, they still get their comments removed after being down voted into the ground. It’s happened to me as well.
My only contention with this is finding a way to foster conversation without censoring opinions just because they’re not widely shared. As long as the argument is in good faith, mods shouldn’t be removing content they don’t agree with, only those that are inflammatory, overly insulting, blatant trolling/shilling, or breaking community rules.
I think it depends. You can be a really polite Baptist preacher being very earnest in !196 about how you think people should behave, and that’s just not what they want. Even in a discussion thread, writing a nonspecific defense of FGM, for example, is going to be offensive enough to probably disrupt the conversation, and I can see removing it.
I’m not suggesting that’s what’s happening; just saying that I like your idea, with some tweaks
People do report stuff, get yelled at by the mods, and then get banned by the admins for abuse of the reporting system, or mod abuse for getting clarification.
What mods/admins are doing this? I would not stick around a community or instance run like this. Luckily with the Fediverse, you can choose what instances or communities you want to go to, you’re not stuck in the same way you were on Reddit. Use that power - don’t let abusive mods/admins be your host.
Moderating comments, even trolling is suppressing free speech. So it goes against the entire purpose of fediverse, it’s an issue with its own system. So people say to report them, but they won’t act on reports since just having an opinion that goes against the narrative can fall under free speech. And moderation it will create other issues.
Go elsewhere, smaller communities, less content, more moderation so less content, it’s all potential issues all the way down that are created by itself.
So it goes against the entire purpose of fediverse
The purpose of the Fediverse is not free speech or censorship-resistance. It’s more like to have a choice in your social media landscape and to make it more democratic, via users choosing what server to use. If you want a server that doesn’t supress free speech, join one like that or make it yourself. If you want a more strictly moderated server, go to one like that or make it yourself.
And yea your choice may not be as popular so maybe there’ll be less content, but you’ll be in the area you chose and maybe others will follow you over time.
Unpopular opinion but I rather downvote. I want to see people’s bad opinions instead of pretending they don’t exist.
The ones that stand out to me are the ones that take offense at mundane things, because they’re looking at it through a skewed mental filter. As far as I can tell, they’re genuine. I don’t know what to make of it, so I just make liberal use of the block button.
That’s some fucking ableist bullshit, not everyone is neurotypical you know. Fucking bigot.
You are really proving his point, eh? Or are you being silly and trolling him? I seriously cannot tell.
Could be genuine. People with a skewed mental filter don’t like to be reminded by someone with an upright one
Not trolling per se, more like an experiment.
I agree with OP that I’m sick of brain dead people picking some random bullshit to engage in. But clearly lemmy as a community has lost the ability to “don’t feed the troll”. Or in other words, lemmings get just as angry against the random bullshit as the random bullshitter is angry for his random bullshit.
The correct response to my post should have been “that’s probably satire”. Instead lemmy went 😡😡😡
The correct response to my post should have been “that’s probably satire”.
Isn’t that what both replies basically say?
Both replies, but not the downvotes
The correct response to my post should have been “that’s probably satire”. Instead lemmy went 😡😡😡
But at the end of the day, how do you truly know, either way?
Especially when people don’t label it as such with a /s.
Understanding context is a skill that has atrophied in younger generations. Reading comprehension is not really being taught in school anymore.
forgot the /s
I didn’t forget, I left it off to see what would happen. Went about as I expected.
forgot the /s
This.
Some threads have a handful of interactions that seem less than genuine, yes. Usually political and derailing and spoil the thread.
Part of the attraction of this place is that it is like things used to be for the most part. Freedom of expression has always been a double edged sword that all of us have to be responsible for. When you start asking others to police an environment, youre giving up that freedom not just for those you find distasteful but for yourself as well. If you simply excercise due diligence in your consumption, you can easily learn what is comfortably digestible and what will give you a heart attack
I have seen this as well. Thankfully Voyager flags accounts under a certain age, so there’s an immediate visual indicator that an inflammatory comment may be just a troll.
That’s a neat feature. I will request that gets added to sync.
Is this on per default? How to activate it?
Thanks
AFAIK it’s on by default. I’m using the most recent iOS version, if you’re not seeing it I’d ask in the voyager community.
Just installed due to this thread.
On by default. Nice feature
I see. The symbol is an yellow baby
Huh, interesting. Voyager’s one of the Lemmy apps? Is it for iOS too?
Lemmy.world actually host a voyager instance at https://m.lemmy.world/
Yeah, it’s an iOS app.
As soon as anyone starts arguing in bad faith I just block them. I don’t really care what they have to say about me for my argument.
I wish you could set a personal minimum “karma” and age requirement. Like I don’t want to hear from anyone with an account made in the last week. And no one with karma below zero.
It’s not really a high bar, it mainly blocks people who get banned all the time.
How do you even see karma?
I dunno. It was there before. Maybe just total their last 5 comment scores. So it’s easy to just not be a dick all the time and get through the filter.
But how would one acquire karma if no one sees their comments?
Also automatically shadow banning new users will mean cool people that come to the site will get the impression that it sucks and leave and never come back.
Oh the cool people are long gone /s
You could just block users with a total < 0 points for those comments.
Yeah, it’s extremely easy to not be blocked.
Karma is easily falsified on the lemmyverse though. I have a maintenance user and a normal user on my server, I can use them both to vote, and thats just easy and not even intentional.
The only problem with blocking is they still see your comments you make, and can respond to them negatively, and you have no way of defending yourself because you haven’t seen their comment.
My wish would be for blocking to prevent those who are blocked from reading comments from the blocker.
Stopping viewing on a per-account basis doesn’t make sense to me, since people don’t need accounts to view any content in Lemmy, therefore it’s trivial to bypass by logging out or fetching the discussion information without logging in from a custom frontend. What would be better is simply stopping them from interracting, just like what happens with bans, they can still view but all interractions are simply dropped or disallowed.
I would love better blocking. But I understand the costs of doing that in a truly federated environment. I’ll just settle for not caring what they actually say about me. The whole point of the trolling is to get a rise out of someone.
Ya, Lemmy is speed running the worst things about Reddit but struggling to build the niche communities that would make people want to hang around.
The thing that’s making me kinda want to leave is it feels like even more of an echo chamber then Reddit was, especially when you see someone calling for the death of someone at least once a week or so
Quite often see people getting downvote bombed and dogpiled for having different political opinions
I left reddit because I fucking hate the company.
But I’m not happy here because I fucking hate the users.
Great summary.
Me even typing a response to your comment make me 70% more likely to get banned in the few hours.
It’s infectuous
Yes but not that much I see the communities are starting to materialize but many that are a 1 to 1 copy didn’t took off sadly the Warframe one is a good example, but you see the pixel dungeon one is going great even Evan00 (the dev of shattered) is buzzing in and the helldivers2 is starting to get to the frontpages. I guess the fediverse moves in a more organical way? Regarding the trolls is normal is a “ladran Sancho” situation, we are getting more people in and that includes idiots. Sadlly/Luckly idiots comes in the full spectrum of races backgrounds and preferences.
We’re about 6 months away from the US presidential election so it doesn’t surprise me.
Never feed the trolls, the only winning move is to downvote and move on
Nothing is as maddening as writing an elaborate troll post only to be completely ignored.
I do all my riling people up on Reddit though because that site is collapsing anyway and a shell of former self. Hard to bring yourself to respect it and not throw some spicy fake made up posts into the wild and see what happens
So you speak from experience?
Yes.
Dammit
Never feed the trolls, the only winning move is to downvote and move on
A counter-philosophy I subscribe to is call out the BS but don’t go back and forth. If you let the trolls be this can bring more trolls. Call out the bad behavior and move on so it isn’t accepted but they also don’t get the satisfaction of engaging in an argument.
Report if they break the rules, block if they’re bad enough.
You should report them as trolls in any case, most instances on Lemmy have rules against trolling in general, further violations beyond that just add to the initial violation of trolling.
Assholes are everywhere, but yeah, it’s been happening slowly but surely ever since lemmy has gained more users (which makes sense).
I’d really like to know the ratio of assholes to regular people out of every 100 people 😂
An ever increasing ratio because assholes drive out non assholes.
Dead Sea effect in action.
Good theory; makes sense
Unless you have mods that aren’t afraid to drive out the assholes
I fit your definition. Now lemme 'splain:
For thirty-five years I have heard nothing but radical right fascism spewing hate, lies, vitriol, slander, and violent rhetoric- over the airwaves, cable, and now social media- and without the slightest bit of challenge or pushback. The amount and volume increased when they figured out it pays big money. The people who listen have never known that it was for entertainment; they are being edged to violence just like Ruwandan radio did.
Liberals have been major pussies and doormats about this because they have no idea who they’re dealing with. They cannot be reasoned with or appealed to through humanity. The radical fascists’ free speech rights do not exist and are not to be defended; there is absolutely nothing to gain there and everything to lose. As I said, liberals have no idea who they’re dealing with.
For all the unchecked violence and damaged caused by the radical fascist shitbags to our daily lives, our long term properity, and to safety and security in general, I absolutely attack them with all the violent and vitriolic slander I can muster to pay back for thirty-five plus years of the same. This is the route every one of you should take, because they all think you’re a bunch of pussies and they take great joy in running you over. They must be made to fear even being seen in public, and beaten down like rabid dogs when they are. They are enemies of freedom, enemies of humanity, and enemies of all that is good in the world.
A lemmy.world account with a spine? 😳😳😳
God damn, color me pleasantly surprised!
Yeah that’s a new one. They deserve a better class of fed.
I think I’m seeing something different, although also synthetic in nature.
It seems like companies or brands are in here (and probably on any social media) actively controlling the message about their brand. People make a post or comment about a specific thing (or person) and you get pre-packages responses, similar in nature and argument.
It makes you feel like it’s tin foil hat time, but I’ve seen different accounts proporting the same exact experiences about a product, which are super specific in nature.
I could see that being a part of a company trying to actively “control the message,” but it makes you question the authenticity of a lot of posts or arguments. Is that person really standing up for this thing with a questionable history, or are they a paid shill?
What would be a safe space from this though? A forum small enough to stay under the radar? I enjoy larger platforms like this because of the diversity in content and viewpoints, but not if it’s a haven for corporate messaging or agencies controlling a narrative.
Am I joining the tin foil hat club here, or has anyone else seen similar?
I disagree. This place isn’t big enough. The nerdiest people I know don’t even know what it is. I worked at a Dev tools company and I spoke to devs all day and everyone is still on Reddit. Nobody corporate cares enough to spend that time here, especially in what’s pretty much an overblown Linux dick-sucking-competition forum. The fake libertarians are ripe for alt right indoctrination however. That, plus the wannabe commies and fake leftists, Russia and China can pickup a few votes from the West here and there.
Wait, tankies and libertarians are fake, and China and Russia are interested, but corporate isn’t? I’m not sure this position is coherent
I hope you’re right