cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/18475086
I’m not against those who work for sex, but the idea to earn for a living doesn’t seem nice. IMO, sex should be for 2 people (or more for others who prefer polyamory) who wants to be intimate/romantic with each other. My point is money should not be the purpose.
People break their bodies doing other kinds of work and people don’t seem too upset about that.
Some sex work isn’t even very physically involved. Take some pictures in the shower. Video yourself rubbing one out. It’s not all walking a dark, rainy, street in your underwear.
All workers should be unionized. Or maybe be in a worked owned cooperative. Capitalism will ruin everything eventually.
Everyone should have access to health care and basic needs.
Laws should be written with input what those they would bind and those they affect. Do sex workers want certain requirements? What do medical professionals think is safest? Laws should not be written to appease the nervous stomach of uninvolved parties.
But this is all fired from the hip because I haven’t done any real research. My gut feel is that most arguments against it are inconsistent (eg: “it’s degrading! But nevermind the job where they literally clean shit off the floor”) or personal nonsense (eg: “it’s a sin! But I don’t care that your worldview doesn’t say so”)
IMO, sex should be for 2 people (or more for others who prefer polyamory) who wants to be intimate/romantic with each other. My point is money should not be the purpose.
This is your personal opinion and really doesn’t justify laws backing it. It’s not founded on anything. Also I’ve got bad news about how a lot of sex isn’t intimate nor romantic.
I can’t fathom any reluctance coming from the left with respect to unionizing and providing necessary health services to any worker. If people do need to resort to sex work to make a living, then what are they supposed to do when they get older? Do you have to do a “respectable” job just to have the right to …retire? I feel some arguments come from a cruel place.
We can do a lot better than the Nordic Model, by the way!
The “legalize everything” response to the ineffeciveness of crackdowns at eliminating the root cause of social problems - like drug abuse and prostitution - is just libertarianism.
So it’s no wonder a bunch of nerdy guys groomed on reddit would be defending this.
Actually the left’s arguments come from information from the pornographers involved with digital pyramid schemes that also launder human trafficking by people like Andrew Tate.
Nobody in this thread has even heard of the Nordic Model, which helps get women out of the trade without criminalizing their activities, instead going after pimps. Employing former prostitutes as social workers.
There’s no need to rehabilitate women who are just entertaining the prostitution pyramid schemes or in the top brackets (essentially participating as e-madams). It’s practically just sharing nudes for pocket change for 99% of those involved.
The real purpose it to set up a wider market for dubiously sourced videos from human traffickers/kidnappers like Andrew Tate with better monetization than video streaming sites. The people jerking off in the shower are just helping provide cover by moving their nude sharing and cosplay activities into a human trafficking monetization pyramid scheme.
The best money is in the most violent and degrading acts available online. People purchasing sex acts through these platforms do it because the manipulation itself is valuable to them. They enjoy forcing people to do very uncomfortable things I’d rather not describe.
I’m getting all of this from actual sociologists by the way, before I get accused of having the same taste! They do studies on the german prostitution forum posts where they complain about the girls having sore holes and broken backs like it’s the wrong sauce on a schnitzel sandwich they ordered. The disgusting behavior is all public and cataloged, but ignored by the sexually desperate men in this thread
Many of you are underselling the exploitative and degrading nature of prostitution by referencing the people drawn into pyramid schemes just sharing their nudes for pocket change
I believe a victimless crime shouldn’t be, and that unless a very strong case is made otherwise for a specific person, people can decide what they want for themselves.
Of course people being forced into sex work is bad, but then so is people being forced into working kitchens or call centers. If they decide on it voluntarily that’s all good and well.
Also, since I can’t resist:
approve of sex workapprove sex workYes, it’s my job to personally rubber stamp every truck stop girl. /s
See, I wasn’t really sure, but I think this thread has helped convince me that it’s probably okay. I was for sex work before, but then I had heard that countries with more lax sex work laws had more human trafficking. But that might just be a result of work in our moder capitalist hellscape. Part of me thinks sex work should be illegal until capitalist is abolished, but part of that is probably just some ingrained puritan attitudes of sex and personal philosophy about its intimacy. It doesn’t mean the state should ban people from selling it and it doesn’t mean I have to partake if it’s legal.
I’ll probably keep reading this thread to evolve my attitudes on the subject more, but thanks everyone for the interesting comments on a subject I don’t think about much (sex work… Sex itself I think about all the time lol).
My take is this.
I will guarantee universal basic job & income for everyone.
Once that’s guarantee I’ll see if anyone is willingly becoming a sex worker.
Without performing that “experiment” I cannot really respond.
A very interesting take. I like that we’re questioning the root cause here.
Let’s take the opposite approach: look at all the top echelons of all past societies, assume that this subset of people was the most free to live in any way that they so desired, then count how many of these people did sex work. I think that we can safely assume that the amount of people that willingly engage in sex work is zero.
Add universal heath care including addiction treatment. This might or might not include de-penalization of addiction, depending on the jurisdiction. Breakdown this more to make clear what I mean. Besides the obvious complementarity between UBI and universal health care, people get to do this because they are also addicted, not just poor. Some are also manipulated by means of being addicted. The current approach that punishes the addicted instead of treating them only makes this worse. Countries that have made addiction a healthcare issue rather than a criminal one have seen results.
I think you’ll find that there’s still quite a crowd that would. UBI for sure would help curb the those on the street scene just trying to pay to survive. But there’s a huge group of only fans models that do things not to survive, but rather to become ultra wealthy
There are other ways in which we sell our bodies in exchange for resources. A lot of people point to soldiers, but for those of us in knowledge work, we sell our brains in exchange for stress and depression if things aren’t in balance. Think about construction workers who break their wrists drilling down floorboards, or caregivers that expose their immune systems to a high quantity of kids who are likely to spread any bugs they pick up because they don’t know better.
Sex work just involves people selling entertainment or enjoyment in a more intimate setting. The fact that it is intimate doesn’t change that it’s work, and that resources can be exchanged for service.
I think this all comes down to stereotypes specific to a certain culture. Hoping I see my culture in America make it more legal so we don’t have some of the issues that come from this market not being legal
Sex work wouldnt exist in an ideal world, as its usually not mentally healthy for the sex worker in the long term.
But since we dont live in an ideal world I would rather legalise it and create laws that protect sex workers instead of criminalising them.
Its the same with all drugs (including cigarettes and alcohol).
I think the opposite. I think sex work as it exists mostly now, wouldn’t be like this in an ideal world. But in an ideal world everything is perfect. So let’s say a world that has ideal economics, people don’t have to resort to this as an act of desperation. But even in such a world, surely there are lonely people? Or people who are just extremely unlucky in love? Or those who don’t have a lifestyle that fits with a long-term relationship? Or those who would like but aren’t ready? The list goes on. One constant that remains in 99.99% of us is one of the most fundamental primal instincts we have - to procreate. This is why food and sex are so enjoyable. Because evolution has led to these things being so great since the genes responsible for that enjoyment have thrived the most and allowed our species to thrive as a whole.
So I think in a world with ideal economics, where everyone can survive and live in health regardless of their luck or opportunities, there will still always be those individuals who crave intimacy and deserve it just as much as anyone. That is where sex workers would be vital.
Literally not different from any kind of therapeutic practitioner.
In an ideal world people who just want casual sex would find each other. And people who want love as well. In an ideal world everyone would also have someone they are an ideal match to.
The only way I see people getting paid to have sex in an ideal world is if they get paid because their sex is so good, like top athletes.
Well I was trying to talk about reality and not fantasy.
We will never live in an ideal world, we can only approach it.
So, yeah, I wasnt referring to reality.
What are the long term risks associated with being a sex worker? Is that any different than being a long term call center worker or secretary, or construction worker?
I think it is because having sex is such an inimate thing and as a sex worker you have to do it even with people you are not intimate with and at times when you dont want to be intimate. The sheer number of sex partners probably also doesnt help.
And then there are the assholes who will straight up step over boundaries and directly create trauma.
I live in Germany where sex work legal btw (and I think it should be kept that way).
Comparing the risks to other work is hard, as the risks vary from person to person and from workplace to workplace in each job.
But I would consider doing sex work if I would have to work in a callcenter otherwise lol
Or coal miner, or electrician, or soldier or cop, or park ranger, etc etc etc.
I think it should be legal, with extra protections for the workers to protect them from exploitation and abuse. Unfortunately though, our entire economic system is exploitative, so I’m not sure if it would ever entirely be by choice that somebody turned to prostitution, though labor itself is never entirely by choice. I only work at my job because I have to, not because I really want to. A worker selling their body to perform legal labor for money is on par with a person selling their body for another’s sexual gratification. Making it illegal just makes it worse for the workers, since they’re obviously going to do it anyways and won’t get any protections from the law.
Sex doesn’t always have to be for love, equating it with love is something religious people have forced on the world to get over their own religion-induced guilt over the whole thing. Bonobos have a crazy amount of sex and use it for all sorts of social interactions, it’s something animals do to feel good and relieve stress. There’s instances of other primates even engaging in prostitution as well, where they trade sex for food, and prostitution is one of, if not the oldest job among humans.
No matter what happens, so long as humans exist, they will want to fuck how they like. Its natural for a product of evolution to do it, the taboos against it exist only in our minds (aside from age limitations and informed consent; we still need to be rational) The more it gets stigmatized the worse it’ll get for people not already on top of the social heap.
Yes because it’s none of my business what other people do with their autonomy and they should be protected in their right to do what they want to do with their autonomy
Absolutely because then we can start talking about protecting and helping the sex workers that need help, and give them a chance to work in a safe environment.
Sex worker have been a thing since at least when we invented writings and still going strong today.
Might be time to give sex workers the dignity and respect they deserve.
Sex worker have been a thing since at least when we invented writings and still going strong today.
I’m pretty sure it was a thing before writing, there was just nobody to write about it.
I know, but we have at least some writings to prove that it happened back then. But sex workers probably exist since the dawn of humanity in a form or another.
It seems like you answered the question “should it be legal”, not “do you approve of it”.
I could technically disapprove of something and still want it to be legalized, but you normally approve what you want to legalize.
But to be clear, I approve of sex workers because to me, it is a job like any other. But since we built society on puritan values, they get a bad reputation and a terrible work situation.
I could technically disapprove of something and still want it to be legalized, but you normally approve what you want to legalize
A very enlightened and humble attitude. I commend you.
it should be decriminalized and it shouldn’t be financially compulsory for the desperate
sex work yeah I sure hope it does!!!🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
you, sir, have just won the internet!! 🤣
Yep. There is definitely a strong market for it. And i firmly believe it alleviates tensions enough to prevent a lot of assaults
If only there were some way to judge if the pornographization of society had led to more assaults and trafficking 🤔
Very cool to steal the arguments pedophiles use to justify what’s on their hard drives.
Why not? People have less and less other jobs to do. From stories of courtesans realise that life forced them to do it. So that we understand each other - if you are “bitching”, do it not on the side, but officially - because then the other party suffers - in false version.
I’ll just respond to your take:
The idea to earn for a living doesn’t seem nice.
For you it doesn’t. For others, mind your own business.
sex should be for 2 people (or more for others who prefer polyamory) who wants to be intimate/romantic with each other.
For you it should. For others, mind your own business.
money should not be the purpose.
For you it shouldn’t. For others, mind your own business.
If you have any desire at all to weigh in or or take a position on the consensual sex lives of other adults, you’re just revealing how little you respect the freedom and autonomy of other people. You’re just revealing your desire to control others.
Pretty much perfect answer right here. This is downright encyclopedic.
