My thoughts is that it’s a simple situation really. If they’re harassing or assaulting people, the women will call the cops or something, simple situation and get the guy arrested. If he’s not doing anything, it’s nothing harmful. Apparently that’s not a solid enough answer. What should I have said?
Doesn’t like every game do this now? When I buy a new PC game it’s always connected to their Dev’s own service
If a person presenting as a man enters the womens bathroom and goes to the bathroom and washes their hands and leaves… I would say nothing. Why the fuck do you care?
Hell, I have seen grown men enter the women’s room with their daughters, maybe around 6-7 years old. Old enough that they want to use the big girl toilet, young enough that they need supervision.
You know what happened? Nothing. Nothing happened, because 99% of people don’t actually care if you’re not being a creep.
99% of people don’t actually care if you’re not being a creep.
I don’t think that’s true. I think there’s a lot of women who don’t feel comfortable/safe in a vulnerable space with men around. And even though one mightn’t actually undress outside the individual toilet cubicles, it’s still - to many - that kind of space.
I think it’s important to respect women’s (and men’s) desire for privacy - even when not all women feel the same need for privacy - through this cultural change of who uses what bathroom.
And that goes doubly when you expand beyond a particular subset of America to different cultures and people with different experiences.
Can you really expect privacy in the communal area of a bathroom? There’s other people walking around you.
I have traveled to very conservative countries and have never found the sort of puritanical hand wringing that comes from a certain subset of Americans.
I say this as an American expat who has lived everywhere from Hawaii to the bible belt, to New York.
Can you imagine the pain and anxiety you would cause a biological woman who does not look feminine enough for your line of reasoning here?
You see her in the restroom and act like she doesn’t belong there - maybe you say something, maybe you keep your “discomfort in your vulnerable place” to yourself, but your stupid ideas about what a woman is and how one should look in order to be accepted into a bathroom are hurtful.
I was in an art class last month with a lovely young woman who has pcos. She is a Sikh woman, and therefore does not remove her facial hair.
She had a beard that would put a young man to shame, and now it occurs to me that had she been unfortunate enough to be born in America, she would have had to choose between honouring the basic tenets of her religion, or conforming so she is not shunned - or worse, assaulted for using the womens room.
https://www.learnreligions.com/some-sikh-women-have-facial-hair-2993341
Not saying I have the answers, but I typically attack the person’s desire for oversimplification and binary stupidity. Like, “Do you feel like this question encompasses all bathroom related issues?” It gives me the time to think, while also assessing their vulnerabilities from an unexpected redirection. I ultimately attack their confidence in forming questions by adding edge case exceptions to their simplified outlook.
When someone poses a question like this, the are telling you that they lack depth. They do not have a good grasp of scales or complexity. They also lack the self awareness required to effectively empathize with others. This is a vulnerability that they have exposed. By exploiting this vulnerability, you invalidate their argument, take control of the rhetoric, and you increase the chance that their insecurity motivates growth of their self awareness at some later point.
This is not even a good question to argue with, if anyone in the restroom is being a creep it’s not ok and that’s that.
You should have said “How is that not a solid enough answer?”
You should have asked him if he’s planning to do that.
What should I have said?
"Wow, sadly I think it means that person has some serious mental issues, and we should get them some help.
Are you feeling okay? Do you want me to call someone for you?"
Probably should have changed the subject or said goodbye. Arguing with conservatives is exhausting and usually in bad faith. It’s about winning, not exploring a topic together.
Do you realize that this belief actually prevents you from discussing in good faith?
If you dehumanize the other, then you can’t be open to discussion with them.
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Its an ancient argument and your answer is correct.
There is no cock check at restroom doors anyone can enter.
Wish there was.
Can’t tell you how many times I’ve went through the embarassment of realizing I left mine at home halfway through a piss.
The argument made by the person asking that question is not based on any realistic fear they have actually thought through. On the big list of gendered violence, a cis dude saying they are trans to accomplish… being present in a bathroom without themselves getting harrassed… doesn’t even register.
Instead, this is just a typical attempt to punch down based on an imagined danger, usually on someone else’s behalf. There’s nothing an oppressor likes more than a piece of illogic that frames their target of oppression as, sneakily, the real oppressor. In this case, it is trans people wanting bathroom access without having to out themselves or to otherwise just not contradict their gender. Gender neutral bathrooms would also be acceptable, or even better, but cis people have insisted on gendered bathrooms. Rather than say, “yeah trans people shouldn’t have to put up with that cis bathroom bullshit”, reactionaries try to come up with ways to reframe the ask as its own form of oppression. This is also the mainstay of TERFs, basically just cis women that pretend trans women are oppressing them by wanting basic equal consideration.
Depending on who this person is, you may want to try various tactics. If you think you can be flippant and dismissive of them, definitely do that preferentiallu. Make them feel like they are being ridiculous and that if they really care about violence against women they should work on guaranteeing housing for all and hate cops. If you can’t be flippant, I recommend still not taking it seriously but just changing the subject to the actual act of oppression and telling them more or less what I said in previous paragraphs. All of this assumes this us a person whose mind you want to change, like that of a friend or family member. If it is a colleague, start documenting their transphobuc comments and see if anyone else has your concerns, get their documentation as well. If it is just some rando, just tell them to shut the fuck up with bad faith transphobia and move on.
“in your biased example the fact that the person is trans isn’t relevant to anything…what’s your point?”
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I don’t get why we have different bathrooms at this point. Its more efficient to just have them all be family bathrooms with floor to ceiling stalls.
Amen! I went to a restaurant that had this layout. Each stall was like it’s own little room with a full sized door and a shared sink area. It’s more efficient use of space and you get a better stall. The only thing that I think would make it better would be a small side area with a couple urinals.
Was at a brewery last night where the “bathroom” was a row of sinks, and then a row of doors labeled “sit” or “stand”. The commode cubicles were full length walls and doors, totally private, and this just makes so much more sense to me
Was at a church yard sale yesterday and they had the same setup. Pretty sure it was not a progressive church.
What public bathroom has dedicated security gaurds? Theres nothing stopping a man from just walking in without having to make stuff up. If someone is acting inappropriate in a public restroom then why does it matter whats in their pants? Gay/lesbian perverts exist too!
As my brother can attest to, there are women take anyone who passes as a man as a threat in the women’s restroom and will go get people to do something. Poor dude was just trying to get tampons.
Seriously that’s always been my question for these people. “Oh no, only women are allowed to enter and I’m not a woman! Oh well, guess I’ll go rape someone somewhere else!” Dude was already planning on committing a crime, guys. Come on.
