The atmosphere is so heated, and the statements are getting more and more extreme. Let’s just assume Harris wins the election. After a campaign like this, how could you ever have a normal relationship with your pro-Trump neighbor/father-in-law/Uncle/Barber or what ever again?
Nothing to get back to when you don’t pay attention in the first place
We need the fascists to stop being fascists. That’s it. Literally once they stop we may not like them anymore but we can learn to live together again
deleted by creator
Short answer: I bite back now.
Long answer: My parents are hard-R Republicans. Every time they start getting all “demoncrats r bad” i just ask them, “Why do you want me dead so fucking bad? I know from being raised by you that you fucking hated me growing up, but to vote for “gays should be executed”? This is exactly why you didn’t have grandkids, the thought of putting more of your hate in the world is abhorrent to me…”
I’ve only had to pull that one out twice, so far, but it hits them hard when they still (I’m a few months away from 40) insist I “give them grandkids”.
it hits them hard when they still (I’m a few months away from 40) insist I “give them grandkids”.
They should probably vote for people where you having kids is an option then (not assuming you want them BTW, just pointing out the irrational hatred of lgbtq+ has made all kinds of family options harder).
I’ve known many people to be like this, they just want to slink back, and ignore the blatant. Thank you for having the balls to step up and bite back. People like you are the reason I don’t see almost ANY Trump flags in my neighborhood this year. It’s a cult of personality that nobody else has quite been able to achieve. Once he’s gone for good, things can get back to semi-normal. We still have to be vigilant about the shit Republicans are doing, but at least maybe at that point some family ties will begin to heal.
removed by mod
removed by mod
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
removed by mod
Sorry my english might be too bad, what exactly is your point?
you don’t. women have lost their federally protect right to an abortion since trump packed the court the last time, there are more than a million less people alive in the United States today from a mismanaged federal global pandemic response because trump was in the big chair the last time. you don’t get back to normal when fascism wins.
After a campaign like this, how could you ever have a normal relationship with your pro-Trump neighbor/father-in-law/Uncle/Barber or what ever again?
You’re assuming those relationships survived the 2020 election. For many, myself included, they didn’t.
I was willing to overlook 2016, but after 4 years of horror culminating in a (failed) coup, and those people still supporting him, I just cut them out of my life.
Supporting Trump is no different than supporting Hitler. I find it very easy to cut nazis out of my life.
One side wants me dead, there are no worthy discussions to be had.
That’s understandable. It’s also, in microcosm, the reason your country is so divided. If you want to continue living in a democracy, you’re all going to have to talk - and listen - to each other.
If you want democracy to survive you should be intolerant of intolerance.
you’re all going to have to talk - and listen - to each other
We do not tolerate intolerance.
I don’t need to talk to those who are openly racist. I’m not talking about some political double speak. I have trump voters in my community that openly use racist slurs in their discussion of immigrants, and minorities in town.
You are the company you keep, and those folks aren’t part of my life. Trump was just the vector to illuminate their position that was previously kept in hushed tones behind doors.
Yes, it’s our fault that fear-addicted racists have refused to listen to reason for decades and particularly during the last eight years when an obviously unfit clown was committing scandal after scandal. We should be inviting cultists who refuse to listen to us back into our lives and calmly discuss why it is good for the country to be a Christofascist dictatorship.
I don’t disagree at all. However, that is a whole lot easier said than done when one side is so far gone in an alternate reality of lies and hate.
We’re going to need a mass cult de-programming or something. I just don’t know how we come back from where we are.
What you think about them, they think about you. They’re not evil, they’re not idiots. If they lived nextdoor you would probably find each other very pleasant.
I just don’t know how we come back from where we are.
It looks pretty simple from where I’m standing. You talk to them. You listen to them. You find things you agree on, beginning with the smaller things. They’re not automatons, they’re people.
Update. This avalanche of supposedly tolerant progressives who are openly against the idea of talking to their fellow citizens proves to me that America deserves everything it gets. Good luck.
What you think about them, they think about you.
True, but irrelevant.
They’re not evil, they’re not idiots.
Hard disagree - they have to be at least one of those things to be MAGA, usually both.
If they lived nextdoor you would probably find each other very pleasant.
Hah! They DO live next door and I most certainly don’t find them pleasant.
“What you think about them, they think about you”
No, this is precisely the issue. Any leftist worth their salt can’t fucking stand conservatives and YET we will still protect their basic human rights and accept them into a collective society.
Conservatives on the other hand are perpetrating violence every single day against leftists and minorities they LOUDLY do not accept into a collective society. They deny abortions for women who are on the verge of death, they advocate for draconian health care policy that massively raises the suicide rates of trans kids because they hate trans kids and they believe deep down in their racism with an unshakable fervor that makes their meager spiritual practice of christianity look sad and pathetic in comparison.
It is far past the point of having a debate with rightwing conservatives, what is left is to intimidate them into shutting up, drowning out their voices and laughing at their tiny hateful visions of the universe.
The social fabric of the US is being ripped apart by conservative white men because they can’t handle how scary using pronouns is and frankly the solution is to activate everybody else, not humor these people yet again with another discussion they are going to approach in a fundamentally disengenous way.
They’re not evil, they’re not idiots.
Hard disagree.
They’re not evil, they’re not idiots.
No, they’re both. They know they’re spreading hate, and they find it funny.
Let’s assume that they are not bad people. In order to bring them to sanity, it would take an ungodly amount of pressure, and they would have to have no connections back to the cult. If there is even a single connection all the effort would be for naught.
They are not where they are, due to logic or empathy, so you can’t use logic or empathy to argue them out of it. I lost my entire extended family over this.
Your first sentence, yes I agree. The next two, not so much. In my town in 2020 we had groups of these chuds roaming around downtown, armed, hunting for “antifa,” meaning anyone wearing black or looking slightly punk. Some of them really do want to shoot us with impunity.
But yeah, it’s also my parents, who probably wouldn’t turn me into the gestapo, but the cognitive dissonance where they simultaneously believe I’m their family but I’m also “the enemy within” doesn’t seem sustainable. At some point, it’s got to be one or the other. Getting them to agree on small things hasn’t changed their overall loyalty to the party, their disdain for Dems, or our relationship.
Naw, maybe you’re not queer and not being called a pedo, or followed or having your job threatened by a former president. It’s not my job to raise an adult right and free of hate, I have one child. I don’t need to burn myself out giving Republicans 3rd and 4th chances to be decent people.
I know what you mean, when I put to nazis and bigots, through various civil discourses, the most agreeable and cordial justifications for their systematic capture and extermination or deportation, to my great surprise, they never acquiesce to any form of intellectual exchange, regarding the legitimate concerns I raise.
Its the most bizzare thing because, just previously, they’d been more than happy to declare thus and so the most polite and reasonable argumentations supporting the very same thing for other people. More so, they many were lamenting how unfair it was for them to be denied the opportunity to pontificate on such matters, just a short time previously.
I’m sure you can only imagine my surprise when they did this, after their claims of wanting nothing more than “civil discourse.”
deleted by creator
The usual way to fix these things is civil war. Don’t worry, you won’t have to start it, the racists and fascists will do it for you. And then they’ll get annihilated, like always.
This is because they may be loud, aggressive, greedy, hateful and boastful which all help them start and ramp up wars. But they are also stupid, cowardly, irrational, week minded and a minority, which make them loose these wars.
It’s hard to listen to the illiterate.
I’m not listening to Nazis so fuck off.
In all seriousness, how does one listen to and communicate with people who have slid so far down a misinformation hole to a place where science is fake, every expert who disagrees is part of a global conspiracy, and the only people they listen to literally can’t stop lying?>
I still talk to and value my mother, and believe she is a good person, but she’s fallen prey to insidious propaganda and believes that Trump is just a flawed tool for God and the Republican platform is the only way to save the world from the forces of evil.
As an aside, my favorite conspiracy theory was how all the governments of the world were collaborating on the COVID lockdowns so they could control the people and take power. The governments capable of national lockdowns could take power. 🤦🏼♂️
I get where you’re coming from. Unfortunately, it’s not really that simple. Sometimes a relationship is so toxic that there’s no way to restore the basic trust that’s needed in order to function as a unit. This is no different. Pre-Trump, we might have been able to talk and salvage things; at this point, they’re just as broken as a relationship full of cheating and domestic abuse. My fear is that the only way forward is breakup (ie civil war) or some other equally deep trauma.
No. It’s called the Paradox of Tolerance. “Discussing” rationally with the intolerant only serves to justify their position in their own eyes and thereby embolden them.
In other words, putting up with them simply gives them more ink
Turning the other cheek only works if the person doing the slapping has a sense of shame. Trump and his ilk have long since proven they have none.
Yeah. Although what if half of the country is intolerant? What then? Divide the country into two?
Then you remove the nazis from your country by any means necessary. I’m sick of people talking about tolerance in the face of genocidal bigotry.
Calm your pits Beka.
Nobody should be advocating for a Final Solution.
People were this divided over FDR. My next door neighbor only ever referred to FDR as that “gimpy legged sonofabitch”. This was in the 1970’s.
If the good guys win the election, we can start to heal this if we choose to. But only if we take the complaints of everyone seriously. Ignoring the needs and political power of white men is what got us into this cluster.
If the bad guys win, start looking for allies.
What complaint am I supposed to be taking seriously exactly?
The one where trans people are invading women’s spaces to rape them?
The one where immigrants are all violent criminals who eat dogs?
Or maybe the one where women are getting abortions instead of using birth control and should not be allowed to make decisions about their own bodies?
I am a white man. I don’t care about the complaints of white men that boil down to “I’ve been on top for so long that any attempt at equity feels like a threat to that position”.
If Trump said:
Then you remove the nazis from your country by any means necessary
We would know what he meant. You are saying the same genocidal thing.
Most of them are hurting in one way or another. This particular round it’s mostly the financial, mental and emotional aftershocks of the pandemic amplified by greedy people coming up with new and inventive ways to take money from the poor and give it to the rich.
But you need to first hear and understand their pain to have any hope of getting through to them.
They’ve been told over and over through misinformation that immigrants, people with disabilities, loose/secular/independent women, people of different religious beliefs, skin colour, whatever else are the reason for their suffering, and that they should be afraid of them. That initial pain is channeled from fear to anger to hate to dehumanization to… “final solutions”.
They want Trump in because they’ve been convinced that he’s powerful and “Trump will fix it.” ‘It’ being whatever the pain is.
The reality is of course a much different story of basically just greedy people distracting them while they steal their lunch money, and narcissists that will do anything to gain ever more power.
But if you want to unprogram someone from that you need to hear their pain. What was that thing that was used by the greedy and narcissistic to channel into hate.
It’s mostly hurt/hurting people who are voting for Trump. To turn them around you need to hear their pain.
I’m not sure it’s half, maybe half of the voting population but that’s usually only around 40-60% of the total population.
I don’t remember who said it first, but I’ve linked it before: there’s no paradox if tolerance is a social contact rather than an ethic. If someone breaks the terms of the contact, then the other party is not bound by it any more.
We don’t. The hate continues to rise and election season never ends. Well, the never-ending election season might be ending real soon if someone gets their way.
there is only forward. no reverse.
I cut them out. Don’t remember where I heard the quote but there was one that goes something like “Our values are so different that any relationship we could have that doesn’t fall to violence cannot be a genuine one.” Essentially we care about things that are too different to be able to talk to each other honestly and get along.
Isn’t that like half the country? I sometimes get called “harsh” for wanting to cut the ~10% of AFD-Voters entirely out of my life.
Call it harsh if you want, but they react to my identity and my beliefs with violence. I’m not going to put myself in that situation and frankly they don’t have anything interesting to say. Why continue a relationship in which I would either have to lie completely about who I am, or tolerate hate speech directed at me or my loved ones? I don’t get anything out of being connected to them, its actively detrimental to my well being. The ones who were family I made it clear that they would not have a relationship with me if they kept at it and they did, so they chose hate over me.
Not even close to half. More like 30%. Probably a little less.
About half of voters.
As for the other people who can vote but don’t, even knowing that one “party” is now a secular cult swearing to build the fourth reich…well, you’d have to ask them. Fuck if any normal people can figure it out.
US voter turnout is abysmal, so half of the voters means like 30% of the people.
If pro Trump. Your pro fascist. Your activity involved in wanting me and everyone I love to be dead or enslaved.
I cut out all fascists from my life. Always have been. So really nothing really will change for the people I talk too.
If Trump wins, you don’t
Yeahhhh, that why I rigged this scenario, because “Civil War” would be a very terrifying answer.
I’ll share a comment I left on another post a few weeks ago because I think the message is important. It’s my own story of how people can change, and also comments from someone more directly in the eyes of current extremist supporters. I got a few downvotes for being naive or overly sympathetic in some opinions, but I still stand by my opinions.
Will I be skeptical of conservatives after this election? Of course, since I was well before the MAGA era. Will there be some people I never associate with again? Of course, since some really revealed themselves to be bad people. But most really just seem ill informed or unable to relate to things beyond their own spheres of influence. But just as people were mutable to become this way, they can get out of being this way. It’s up to each person though to determine what level of effort they’re willing to put into it though.
If things get worse after the election, I may harden my stance, but I’m still hopeful for now. Most of my loved ones though are liberals and gay people though, and when push comes to shove, they will always win out with me. I won’t condone hateful behavior and people can get lost as long as they’re going to do things to spread that crap, but if they decide to be receptive and compassionate again, they need people that will be there to receive them back to normalcy.
Margaret Killjoy was recently talking on one podcast about mutual aid during the recent hurricanes. She was talking about how her neighbors probably have starkly opposite views as she does as a trans anarchist, but she believed that in a situation like this where it could mean life or death, that they would be able to set differences aside and work together for their mutual benefit.
She also went on to say that she didn’t hate them and wish them any harm, she just wished that they would stop holding on to hateful and hurtful beliefs.
Most of my family and my girlfriend’s families support just about all of this MAGA crap, but I don’t know if I could call a single one of them a bad person. Some of them treat me differently in what I feel are very obvious ways, but I don’t believe any of them would let me suffer on purpose. They all seem to not have problems sympathizing with people or situations they are personally familiar with, but with concepts that they are unfamiliar with, they can find them unimportant, and develop bad takes on those things.
As my family is almost all conservative, I was raised that way, and until my later 20s, I had a lot of the same beliefs. As I met more people, learned more things, and developed opinions of my own, I am now mostly the opposite person I was. I can see how wrong I was about just about everything.
I feel it’s ok to hate the beliefs, and dissociate with people while they hold those beliefs, and especially while they act on those beliefs, which includes giving power to those pushing those values on others. I don’t think we should turn our backs totally to them as people though, if that makes sense. If they were hurt, I would still help them. If they needed something, I would help them to get it. If they want me to meet them somewhere in the middle ideologically, most likely not. But it’s part of my humanity to not leave someone to suffer just because they’ve got some dumbass beliefs.
You have every right to associate or not with whomever you wish. You can believe the opposite of people and think they are wrong for what they believe. But I think most people are inherently good. Some make it much harder to keep that belief, but I don’t think many are lost causes or irredeemable.
Well, the way we “went back to normal” after an intense election campaign in 2015-2016 was just…not. Not letting it end for the last nine years. This is essentially still the same campaign that started with the stupid escalator ride. I hope it actually does go back to some semblance of normal in a few months, and we can see how that works then.
deleted by creator
