Hi all! This is an alt for anonymity. Please be gentle, this is a hard topic for me to discuss.
I’m a progressive United States citizen who is looking to get out. I’m of Italian descent so I’m working on getting Italian citizenship through jure sanguinis, but it’s going to take some time, if it works at all (gotta substantiate some relations) and won’t extend to my husband until he completes a citizenship test, which he can do after living in Italy for two years.
Here’s my big question: is moving to Italy even a good idea?
I know there’s a significant element of fascism there, but that seems to be the case to varying extents throughout Europe. I’ve visited a few times as a tourist and everyone was very kind. I also have a US cousin that lives there as a permanent resident near Napoli and she is very encouraging, saying people will be welcoming. We don’t want much, just to make a living and maybe have a kid.
I mean you don’t have to live in Italy after getting your citizenship they are an EU country with freedom of moment.
True, but my husband does for two years prior to getting his citizenship.
Ah yeah that will be the wrinkle
Not sure that’s true. As an EU citizen, you can pretty much live anywhere in Europe. Then your husband can apply for spouse visa through you in that country. There are usually a couple of avenues available.
Edit: here’s usually the requirements for staying beyond 3 months as an EU citizen in another country. Then once you get residence, you can apply for residence for your spouse.
For Stays Beyond 3 Months You must meet one of these conditions:
- Be employed or self-employed
- Have sufficient resources and health insurance to support yourself without becoming a burden on the social assistance system
- Be studying with comprehensive health insurance and sufficient resources
- Be a family member of an EU citizen who meets any of the above conditions
Not really. Being married to an EU/EEA citizen he’ll get a residence in any of the other ones. But having a full passport will cut down on paperwork in the long term.
Also, it’s nice here in Italy. Come over! The wife and I have been here for 7 years and once the bureaucracy is dealt with it’s (mostly) quite pleasant.
That’s great! We’re trying to be forward thinking with his citizenship. I want to be sure he’s okay if I were to suddenly die or something.
Any recommendations on locations? We’re thoroughly overwhelmed figuring this all out.
you’re aware that italy is ahead of us in the fascism timeline, right?
Yeah but their velocity is much much lower atm.
how so?
Outside of losing a war, I’m not sure of any civilization that’s changed as hard and fast as America is at the moment. And it’s only going to get worse as the economy crashes.
the united states is part of a civilization that’s changing more rapidly than the rest of it and even then, only its privileged classes; italy’s another part of western civilization that has also changed in the same manner and to a further degree than americans have (so far).
No self-coup happened yet, most constitutional freedoms are still respected, there are no political extra-judicial arrests (or at least not that many). Except for some repression of communitarian spaces and public protests, it is not sensibly different from any center/center-right neoliberal government.
if by “self-coup” you referring to trump’s election; they did the same thing with their own fascists and their parliament helped in the same way that our congress helped and their repression is also focused on lgbt arena’s like ours is; but goes well beyond minor policy changes and it’s here where they’ve gone further down the fascism timeline than we have.
I’m talking about a private individual invading the physical and digital spaces of public institutions with the president providing political cover and stopping other parts of the state to intervene. That’s a self-coup. Nothing like that happened in Italy and so far the government is operating within legality.
No, that’s still just a normal coup of congress’s authority
and it’ll become just as legal here if anyone ever tried to challenge it in the courts; this seems like a tiny technicality to me.
I say go for it. You have better luck getting rid of fascism in Europe than you have in the US. Just know that if US influence is waning over this part of the world, it means US democrat as well. And China will likely become the new big influence on the region if not Russia. And such a transition will be very violent.
This is true, if Europe goes fascist the Americans will invade and bring y’all some more freedom. If the United States goes fascist we’re all just screwed.
Hello, Italian here.
So I’ve been a traveller most of my life, for work, and when I was younger, like so many Italians, I dreamed of emigrating to so many different places; life had other plans, and I stayied. Luckily I was able to make a career in a profitable field, and over time I came to appreciate my own country, always looking forward to coming back home.
There’s much to be said for Italy’s cultural heritage and natural beauty, and anywhere you may be in our country, a weekend getaway to visit a beatiful city, historical sites, beach or mountainside is always fairly accessible.While the rightward move is worrisome, we also have the factor that governments in Italy rarely last to the end of their mandate (we’ve been getting better on that), let alone get elected more than once. Italy was never rid of fascism, in part because that wasn’t in the US’ interest, but also always had one of the strongest communist factions in Europe, so who knows.
What I’ve got to warn you about is economic struggles: Italy has among the lowest wages in developed Europe, for most of us it is impossible to afford an abode alone, most people wait until they’re married because it takes two working people to be able to pay for a single apartment or house (houses for most people are only affordable way outside of cities) and where possible we get mortgages, because rents are impossible; all of our lives are coloured by monetary constraints: we drive small cars because they’re cheaper to own and operate, we mostly hang clothes because driers are another appliance you have to buy and are expensive to run, we rely on a deteriorating public healthcare system because private healthcare is, while usually accessible, an expense we cannot afford.
That said, if you can manage to find good paying jobs, in my opinion this is a good place to live. Of course you need to speak Italian, there’s very low knowledge of English here.
Best work chances are in the North, unfortunately it’s also the least appealing when it comes to natural surroundings, fog, humid heat and bad weather are typical unless you go WAY north to the Alps. If you really feel the need to be in a left-leaning environment, Emilia Romagna is the “red” land of Italy, since the country’s creation has always been governed by left wing parties, and as such has among the best public infrastructure.Let me know if you need to know anything more.
It’s not really clear what you’re trying to communicate
Thank you so much for a very helpful and detailed response. We’re both planning on working remotely and we’d actually prefer to live outside of the cities. I’m good at learning languages and my husband is bilingual and excellent with accents, so we will work at being fluent in the language of wherever we settle.
In your opinion, can we ever be fully accepted by any Italian community or will we always be “that (hopefully) nice American couple”. I worry because we’re missing all the cultural touchstones gained from growing up in Italy. We’ve been advised to be persistently nice with neighbors and that bigger cities will have English speaking immigrants we can meet up with, but we really want to integrate, acknowledging it’ll take time and effort. Do you think that is possible?
We’re both planning on working remotely and we’d actually prefer to live outside of the cities.
Meaning you already have jobs lined up for this? Remote work in Italy is not uncommon but not super common either, and usually it’s not full remote. Be aware that many areas of Italy have poor connection speeds.
can we ever be fully accepted by any Italian community
I don’t see why not. Maybe focus on being yourselves rather than what you want to be seen as! Of course making new friends as adults always presents challenges, anywhere, but Italians are known to be friendly and outgoing.
Meaning you already have jobs lined up for this?
Yeah, we already work remotely. My employer is fine with my working anywhere in the world. My husband’s employer isn’t, but he’s working on new employment. We can survive on my income alone.
Maybe focus on being yourselves rather than what you want to be seen as!
Thanks, that’s the plan! We’re both friendly and outgoing, I think more than most Americans, so I’m hoping that helps.
Thanks again for the info and your encouragement. We experienced a lot of xenophobia when we previously asked on Reddit, so this has been really refreshing.
If you need anything else let me know! Godspeed.
Are you a cis woman? I ask because you said you have a husband and you may want a kid. Italy is going against gay adoption, and I think it’s not easier if you’re a trans woman with a cis man, for example. You could try to have some information about abortion, because right to abort isn’t the same thing to access to this right. It’s not specific to Italy, and I think a lot of European countries are currently going the same way.
Edit: I mean, if you like the country, have family and really want to leave, I don’t think it’s a bad idea.
Be careful. If you move to Italy, you might start hating people over how they eat food(like eating spaghetti with bread)
Hah, I know exactly what you’re talking about. I’ve been on the “double carbs bad” train for awhile, but I don’t care when other people do it.
Trump isn’t fascism, it’s authoritarian sure but he’s in it for his own criminal financial gain. For his self enrichment he mobilises the fascist tools of nationalism and division but it isn’t the rigorous ideology of state and society of fascism that he promotes: It’s more of a kleptocratic autocracy. Trump will destabilize the U.S. economy for his own profit, likely shifting reserves into $Trump crypto while China and Russia pick up the pieces. So moving to Italy is an excellent idea. It’s beautiful, the weather’s good, you might well have problems finding well paid work but you’ll eat well - what more could you want!
You know that you will have to keep paying taxes to the US, right?
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/us-citizens-and-resident-aliens-abroad
If you are a U.S. citizen or resident living or traveling outside the United States, you generally are required to file income tax returns, estate tax returns, and gift tax returns and pay estimated tax in the same way as those residing in the United States.
If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. You are subject to tax on worldwide income from all sources and must report all taxable income and pay taxes according to the Internal Revenue Code.
The question is asked probably because there’s no real way of avoiding the empire’s grip if you’re born into it, even if you naturalize as a citizen of another country.
Yeah, I only learned about it recently too… It’s pretty ironic considering that the whole “No taxation without representation” colonial shtick continues to be worshiped by the bootlickers of the empire.
Progressive here too. We’re staying on the blue coast.
Take a trip to Italy, as long as you can, and do a ton of research before you commit. That is a very large commitment, and you should have the language down pat, enough savings for a year, and a job lined up, or very strong prospects. If you are missing any of these things, I wouldn’t recommend going.
For me personally, I wouldn’t move unless there was significant danger. The grass is always greener. There will always be benefits and tradeoffs. I couldn’t see my family moving to Italy, even if we were straight. Their slide is not too far off from our own.
US ex pat here:
I agree with a big decision, but I strongly disagree with needing the language down pat before you go. You should know some for sure, and mostly have a willingness to learn it. You’re going to learn so much faster while there than you will studying in the US.
Just need enough language to get by at first
anywhere outside Milan you won’t be able to rely on English for anything. Bureaucracy and services are going to be a nightmare without conversational Italian.
Totally. But “down pat” and conversational are a bit different.
I was planning on leaving if the orange got reelected. I only didn’t because in the years between when I made that decision (2021) and now, I found myself in a relationship cohabitating with my partner. She’s here as a refugee and can’t leave or that gets rescinded. It took some serious soul searching to decide to retract my longstanding plan to escape this hellish fascist-speedrun. I was even doing phone interviews. If you think you could be happy, do it.
Unless you’re a directly targeted demographic, leaving the US is the coward’s way out. You abandon everyone who doesn’t have the means to flee. Stay and fight for something. Running away from problems doesn’t solve them, it just cedes power to the problem.
TIL: disinformation is a synonym for “presumptuous asshole”. Who knew?
TIL a ham sandwich is a synonym for cowardly pig. But we both knew that already.
You don’t know anything about this person or their personal circumstances. The only thing I know about you, based on these two comments, is you’re a divisive moron.
Dogmatic idiots like you made your country the shit hole it is today. Fuck off, blue MAGA.
I qualified my first comment based on that exact criticism. Now what I know about you is that you jump into a conversation without availing yourself of what’s been said.
Run away if you want. By all means save yourself. It doesn’t change the fact that the act is directly harmful to solving the problems you’re running from, and you need to be honest with yourself about that. Cowards like you are why this country is where it is today.
LOL
I’m not too fond of the plenty Americans having the same idea.
Stay there.I can’t offer much but to say I’m quite jealous, lol. My wife and I have researched just about every possible opportunity to do the same, just to find everything either doesn’t apply to us or is just out of reach at this time (and for the foreseeable future). Asking for help around this topic typically leads to an insane amount of backlash online, so I’ve found…
Yeah, the Italian subs on the other place weren’t very kind when I asked a few years ago.
If I might offer some possibly applicable advice, hire a genealogist if you think you’re eligible but are stuck. I spent ten of hours researching what seemed like a dead end. We hired a genealogist who found what I needed in less than two hours and pointed out another eligible line I didn’t know qualified.
We’ve explored that route pretty thoroughly, unfortunately… Neither of us are eligible.
If you’re able, come as an expat. There are lot’s of jobs that allow you to stay and after 5 years (differs by country), you can request citizenship.
Italian living in Italy here.
Yes we have fascists but the americans who commented this post ignore a couple things:- our form of government is different from yours, the multi-partisan system helps keeping those things in check;
- Italy is a founding member of EU and is financially depending on it, so even the fascist know that they cannot just do what they want, otherwhise Bruxelles might pull the plug.
Thus said, the problem here is another: jobs. There is a high level of unemployment, expecially among people that don’t work in super specialized environments, like engineering, CS or healthcare, just to make some examples. I have a lot of friends and relatives that had to move abroad just to make a living.
And I mean A LOT: my best friend lives in Australia, my brother in Ireland, literally half of the company I hanged out with as a teenager lives in Holland and I myself lived in Spain for a couple years before getting an opportunity here. So, unless you work one of these jobs I suggest you to priorityze another country.Thanks for your response. The multi-party government is exactly what kept us interested in Italy. We can both work remotely, so that’s the plan for income, plus we inherited a bit of money when my husband’s father passed. Nothing huge but we won’t show up destitute.
If you have the possibility to work remotely, this might help a lot.
On a side note, there is something I feel I have to be honest towards you: Jure Sanguinis is a gimmick of the fascist party (they are so fond of Latin names).
They think you have more right to be Italian if your grandfather left the country, because it was a shit place job-wise as it is now, and you know fuck all of our culture than if you lived here your whole life, perfectly integrated, went through school here, work here, pay taxes here but just happened to be born in another country: a friend of mine from Albania had to jump through incredible hoops and managed to get citizenship at 26 despite living here since she was fucking 2 y.o.
Do what you will with this information.
Yes, we very very very strong 🥰 big Forza Bruxelles, Belgians mightiest of all Europe. Our history is countless won battles one after another. We ruled the whole world, you know?
I meant “Bruxelles” as a figurative “European Union” since the EU headquarters are there.
I make it clear because I don’t want to be mistaken for empowering Belgium. /s
You emigrate to Italy and then you’ll be an immigrant from the US. One’s a verb, the other a noun.
Once you have Italian citizenship you’ll be able to live an work anywhere in the Schengen region. So a lot more options once you’re in.
In the future, consider ensuring you actually know what you’re talking about before attempting pedantic corrections.
That’s not the difference. Both words have noun and verb forms.
Immigrate = to move to a place
Emigrate = to move from a place
Immigrant = a person who moved to a place
Emigrant = a person who moved from a place
So they would be emigrating from the US and immigrating to Italy. They would be a US emigrant and an Italian immigrant.
