Hi all! This is an alt for anonymity. Please be gentle, this is a hard topic for me to discuss.
I’m a progressive United States citizen who is looking to get out. I’m of Italian descent so I’m working on getting Italian citizenship through jure sanguinis, but it’s going to take some time, if it works at all (gotta substantiate some relations) and won’t extend to my husband until he completes a citizenship test, which he can do after living in Italy for two years.
Here’s my big question: is moving to Italy even a good idea?
I know there’s a significant element of fascism there, but that seems to be the case to varying extents throughout Europe. I’ve visited a few times as a tourist and everyone was very kind. I also have a US cousin that lives there as a permanent resident near Napoli and she is very encouraging, saying people will be welcoming. We don’t want much, just to make a living and maybe have a kid.
Just wanna say warm wishes, share your research if you find anything.
Not to hate but what steps have you made to change your current situation? All Europe is moving towards the far right spectrum, if Italy were to be in the same boat are you going to keep on running? Why not try to improve your local community and make a change instead of running away. That’s the main reason why we are in this mess, instead of communities coming together, people leave and the o lay ones left behind are the ones voting for where we are at now.
Life is most certainly better in an Italian city then an America mid tier nothing city.
No hate at all, it’s a good question. We’re both politically active, we even met at a protest lol. We’ve been involved in local politics for over a decade.
We’re now in our thirties and are just tired of the US employment rat race and general political apathy. I’m not going to pretend we’re not being selfish. We’re just tired.
What’s one guy gonna do against 52% of Americans who came together in their communities and expressed the democratic will to choose Fascism?
52% of those who voted
In reality, Trump was voted in by around 32% of Americans who are eligible to vote. He’s tearing everything apart with a mandate from 23% of the US population.
Democracy, baby!
You should drop this argument. Those who haven’t voted are assumed to have the same distribution as those who did.
Do you have any evidence to suggest that whatsoever?
Republicans turned out at slightly higher numbers than Democrats relative to their representation in the U.S. population (8 points vs. 5 points).
And there’s a lot there suggesting a leftward lean from the independent portion (eg. disproportionately non-white, non-Christian and urban)
Edit: If anyone has a counter argument I’d love to hear it. Its just weird to dismiss the entire massive non-voting bloc in a country with a long history of right wing voter suppression and anemic left wing opposition.
Republicans put a ton of effort into voter restrictions, ostensibly to prevent mass voter fraud which study after study proves does not exist. Why do they go through the trouble?
Unite his community, find like minded people and create a movement to vote these guys out? That’s literally the American dream
That assumes that like-minded people exist in sufficient quantities to do this. If they do, why haven’t they voted already if they do? Why do they need to be told to do something or united at all when OP doesn’t? What’s different between them?
Italian living in Italy here.
Yes we have fascists but the americans who commented this post ignore a couple things:- our form of government is different from yours, the multi-partisan system helps keeping those things in check;
- Italy is a founding member of EU and is financially depending on it, so even the fascist know that they cannot just do what they want, otherwhise Bruxelles might pull the plug.
Thus said, the problem here is another: jobs. There is a high level of unemployment, expecially among people that don’t work in super specialized environments, like engineering, CS or healthcare, just to make some examples. I have a lot of friends and relatives that had to move abroad just to make a living.
And I mean A LOT: my best friend lives in Australia, my brother in Ireland, literally half of the company I hanged out with as a teenager lives in Holland and I myself lived in Spain for a couple years before getting an opportunity here. So, unless you work one of these jobs I suggest you to priorityze another country.Thanks for your response. The multi-party government is exactly what kept us interested in Italy. We can both work remotely, so that’s the plan for income, plus we inherited a bit of money when my husband’s father passed. Nothing huge but we won’t show up destitute.
If you have the possibility to work remotely, this might help a lot.
On a side note, there is something I feel I have to be honest towards you: Jure Sanguinis is a gimmick of the fascist party (they are so fond of Latin names).
They think you have more right to be Italian if your grandfather left the country, because it was a shit place job-wise as it is now, and you know fuck all of our culture than if you lived here your whole life, perfectly integrated, went through school here, work here, pay taxes here but just happened to be born in another country: a friend of mine from Albania had to jump through incredible hoops and managed to get citizenship at 26 despite living here since she was fucking 2 y.o.
Do what you will with this information.
Yes, we very very very strong 🥰 big Forza Bruxelles, Belgians mightiest of all Europe. Our history is countless won battles one after another. We ruled the whole world, you know?
I meant “Bruxelles” as a figurative “European Union” since the EU headquarters are there.
I make it clear because I don’t want to be mistaken for empowering Belgium. /s
Hello, Italian here.
So I’ve been a traveller most of my life, for work, and when I was younger, like so many Italians, I dreamed of emigrating to so many different places; life had other plans, and I stayied. Luckily I was able to make a career in a profitable field, and over time I came to appreciate my own country, always looking forward to coming back home.
There’s much to be said for Italy’s cultural heritage and natural beauty, and anywhere you may be in our country, a weekend getaway to visit a beatiful city, historical sites, beach or mountainside is always fairly accessible.While the rightward move is worrisome, we also have the factor that governments in Italy rarely last to the end of their mandate (we’ve been getting better on that), let alone get elected more than once. Italy was never rid of fascism, in part because that wasn’t in the US’ interest, but also always had one of the strongest communist factions in Europe, so who knows.
What I’ve got to warn you about is economic struggles: Italy has among the lowest wages in developed Europe, for most of us it is impossible to afford an abode alone, most people wait until they’re married because it takes two working people to be able to pay for a single apartment or house (houses for most people are only affordable way outside of cities) and where possible we get mortgages, because rents are impossible; all of our lives are coloured by monetary constraints: we drive small cars because they’re cheaper to own and operate, we mostly hang clothes because driers are another appliance you have to buy and are expensive to run, we rely on a deteriorating public healthcare system because private healthcare is, while usually accessible, an expense we cannot afford.
That said, if you can manage to find good paying jobs, in my opinion this is a good place to live. Of course you need to speak Italian, there’s very low knowledge of English here.
Best work chances are in the North, unfortunately it’s also the least appealing when it comes to natural surroundings, fog, humid heat and bad weather are typical unless you go WAY north to the Alps. If you really feel the need to be in a left-leaning environment, Emilia Romagna is the “red” land of Italy, since the country’s creation has always been governed by left wing parties, and as such has among the best public infrastructure.Let me know if you need to know anything more.
It’s not really clear what you’re trying to communicate
Thank you so much for a very helpful and detailed response. We’re both planning on working remotely and we’d actually prefer to live outside of the cities. I’m good at learning languages and my husband is bilingual and excellent with accents, so we will work at being fluent in the language of wherever we settle.
In your opinion, can we ever be fully accepted by any Italian community or will we always be “that (hopefully) nice American couple”. I worry because we’re missing all the cultural touchstones gained from growing up in Italy. We’ve been advised to be persistently nice with neighbors and that bigger cities will have English speaking immigrants we can meet up with, but we really want to integrate, acknowledging it’ll take time and effort. Do you think that is possible?
We’re both planning on working remotely and we’d actually prefer to live outside of the cities.
Meaning you already have jobs lined up for this? Remote work in Italy is not uncommon but not super common either, and usually it’s not full remote. Be aware that many areas of Italy have poor connection speeds.
can we ever be fully accepted by any Italian community
I don’t see why not. Maybe focus on being yourselves rather than what you want to be seen as! Of course making new friends as adults always presents challenges, anywhere, but Italians are known to be friendly and outgoing.
Meaning you already have jobs lined up for this?
Yeah, we already work remotely. My employer is fine with my working anywhere in the world. My husband’s employer isn’t, but he’s working on new employment. We can survive on my income alone.
Maybe focus on being yourselves rather than what you want to be seen as!
Thanks, that’s the plan! We’re both friendly and outgoing, I think more than most Americans, so I’m hoping that helps.
Thanks again for the info and your encouragement. We experienced a lot of xenophobia when we previously asked on Reddit, so this has been really refreshing.
If you need anything else let me know! Godspeed.
As I haven’t seen this mentioned so far: Be sure that you both learn the language.
Seen a lot of posts in other immigration heavy subs/communities where people move to europe and don’t make any effort on learning the local language, and then are surprised/depressed that they can’t find any friends or jobs
I agree only like 20% with this. I’m an European who migrated for studies and work to 5 other European countries. It does help to learn the language but if you go to a big city or a university town, most people will speak English and you only need to learn the coffee place/restaurant/supermarket basics. It’s still a big decision and op shouldn’t do it on a whim
I have an Italian friend, so tried to learn Italian. I did French at school (30 years ago), so how hard can it be, right?
Real fucking hard.
WHY DO SO MANY THINGS HAVE GENDERS?! WHY IS AN APPLE TREE HE, BUT AN APPLE IS SHE?! (or is it the other way around?)
I’m English, so I guess I’ll just carry on the grand tradition of talking louder and using hand gestures.
Most Italians don’t speak correct Italian. As long as you make yourself understood, in day-to-day life it doesn’t matter.
Of course work may require you to perfect your language skills for certain roles.
WHY IS AN APPLE TREE HE, BUT AN APPLE IS SHE?!
Just wait until you learn about eggs, ears or fingers
Bapidi booopi?
fun fact! In french, the slang word for penis (bite) is feminine, so it’s la bite.
Makes total sense
100%. We’re taking classes and using Babbel already, just in preparation. I doubt we’ll be fluent by the time we’d move, but we’ll be functional. We just don’t want to be more entitled Americans who expect everyone to speak English. We want to do the work.
Italy is being run by fascist lite.
Is that any worse though?
Fascista Leggera ⚖️ Full blown McFascism
Fascista Superleggera V12
So like the US dems?
Hi, Italian here
Italy, like many European countries, had strong social-democratic foundations. Many state jobs, strong state education, one of the best state healthcares out there, strong labour laws with contracts made by unions with specific job sectors.
That’s now mostly on paper, and things change significantly from region to region. For example Emilia Romagna is still pretty strong on those, but go to the south and you’ll see state school buildings being closed because they might collapse, or not offering any heating or A/C for the kids. Public healthcare is now very understaffed in most regions.
As for labour laws, companies aren’t exactly too happy giving the expected raises or following work hours, and unskilled jobs are a disaster of underpay and unpaid overtime.
In general, social cohesion is hit or miss. Sure,most people are welcoming and friendly, but many of them are not paying all of their taxes. You’re friends with the person in front of you, not with your whole nation.
Now that I broke some of the possible expectations: yes it’s a good idea to come here. With time you will find some job, especially in the north and centre regions, just prepare for high rents in big cities and you’ll be fine. Oh and possibly find somebody to help with taxes. If you decide for Rome, Napoli or Palermo, don’t drive right away, take your time to learn how people drive here, what to expect etc
I wouldn’t want to live near Napoli, or anywhere in the south. Italy is basically 2 countries. The rich north and the extremily poor south. It’s a nice country but also has it’s own issues. I love to go on holiday there, don’t know if I would want to live there. But I have the luxury of living in The Netherlands, I guess anything is better than the US right now. Knowing the language helps a lot, if you do not speak it then for sure learn Italian, even if it’s just the basics. Americans don’t have a great status as expats or tourists, anywhere really, adjusting to the customs and loosing the americanism is recommended.
It’s really bad how the country is so divided. It would be better for everyone if this would change. But there’s a lot of crime in the south, so I wouldn’t want to live there.
Might I ask about your concerns about Napoli? Are they more than crime?
Are there any areas you’d recommend? We’re looking for more community/family engagement and a slower lifestyle, if it helps.
I was just a tourist, so take that into account. But in Napoli I felt fine on the main shopping streets, but when I would take a side road I felt very unsafe and watched. It’s clear you don’t belong there and you feel a target on your back, or at least that was my experience. Tourist heavy areas are better, but there are more pickpockets there too. I felt like I constantly had to look over my shoulder and shouldn’t divert too far from the busy roads.
The far right national government certainly isn’t good, but you’re right that it’s probably not that far off from most other big european countries. Definitely research the specific region you’re moving to, there are often extremely large differences between regions in european countries when it comes to political leanings, general tolerance and economic opportunities and it’s not always as clear-cut as “big cities good, countryside bad” or “north good, south bad”.
If you contribute financially you will find a warmer welcome, I guess
I mean you don’t have to live in Italy after getting your citizenship they are an EU country with freedom of moment.
True, but my husband does for two years prior to getting his citizenship.
Not sure that’s true. As an EU citizen, you can pretty much live anywhere in Europe. Then your husband can apply for spouse visa through you in that country. There are usually a couple of avenues available.
Edit: here’s usually the requirements for staying beyond 3 months as an EU citizen in another country. Then once you get residence, you can apply for residence for your spouse.
For Stays Beyond 3 Months You must meet one of these conditions:
- Be employed or self-employed
- Have sufficient resources and health insurance to support yourself without becoming a burden on the social assistance system
- Be studying with comprehensive health insurance and sufficient resources
- Be a family member of an EU citizen who meets any of the above conditions
Not really. Being married to an EU/EEA citizen he’ll get a residence in any of the other ones. But having a full passport will cut down on paperwork in the long term.
Also, it’s nice here in Italy. Come over! The wife and I have been here for 7 years and once the bureaucracy is dealt with it’s (mostly) quite pleasant.
That’s great! We’re trying to be forward thinking with his citizenship. I want to be sure he’s okay if I were to suddenly die or something.
Any recommendations on locations? We’re thoroughly overwhelmed figuring this all out.
Ah yeah that will be the wrinkle
I can’t offer much but to say I’m quite jealous, lol. My wife and I have researched just about every possible opportunity to do the same, just to find everything either doesn’t apply to us or is just out of reach at this time (and for the foreseeable future). Asking for help around this topic typically leads to an insane amount of backlash online, so I’ve found…
Yeah, the Italian subs on the other place weren’t very kind when I asked a few years ago.
If I might offer some possibly applicable advice, hire a genealogist if you think you’re eligible but are stuck. I spent ten of hours researching what seemed like a dead end. We hired a genealogist who found what I needed in less than two hours and pointed out another eligible line I didn’t know qualified.
We’ve explored that route pretty thoroughly, unfortunately… Neither of us are eligible.
If you’re able, come as an expat. There are lot’s of jobs that allow you to stay and after 5 years (differs by country), you can request citizenship.
Progressive here too. We’re staying on the blue coast.
Take a trip to Italy, as long as you can, and do a ton of research before you commit. That is a very large commitment, and you should have the language down pat, enough savings for a year, and a job lined up, or very strong prospects. If you are missing any of these things, I wouldn’t recommend going.
For me personally, I wouldn’t move unless there was significant danger. The grass is always greener. There will always be benefits and tradeoffs. I couldn’t see my family moving to Italy, even if we were straight. Their slide is not too far off from our own.
US ex pat here:
I agree with a big decision, but I strongly disagree with needing the language down pat before you go. You should know some for sure, and mostly have a willingness to learn it. You’re going to learn so much faster while there than you will studying in the US.
Just need enough language to get by at first
anywhere outside Milan you won’t be able to rely on English for anything. Bureaucracy and services are going to be a nightmare without conversational Italian.
Totally. But “down pat” and conversational are a bit different.
You do realize you’re attempting to move to the country that invented fascism in an attempt to…escape fascism?
We are also the first country that got rid of fascism 😉
They aren’t too far behind us on the backslide either atm
There is a fascist party in power there rn
they’re ahead of us; they’ve had a fascist leaders for a couple of years and have already legally disenfranchised many.
If you’re white and have a reasonable amount of money you’ll be fine anywhere in Europe 😬… I’m only half joking.
