I wouldn’t mind followers-only federation of Threads. My issue would be that the flow of posts from there (if it reaches the federated timeline anyway) would be a burden for moderation.
The Eternal September is coming, as it always does.
Me too!
Honestly? I don’t trust Meta, but I like that they’re implementing federation.
It will allow me to follow famous people or brands that only have a Threads account through the privacy of my Mastodon/Lemmy/whatever app, so I’m not forced to use Meta’s official apps, which are famously riddled with trackers and whatnot.
I didn’t think about that. One to many brand marketing. One might even call it… web 1.0
Sure but then anyone whose ever interacted with you, outside of Meta, will be susceptible to Meta’s privacy issues even if they block you or are only on instances that block threads because their previous comments will be on your content. At least from my understanding, that’s how defederating and blocking goes. If I’m wrong, let me know but if not it’s going to get hard knowing who we can interact with in the fediverse if they’re also interacting with threads.
It’ll look the same way it does interacting with different mastodon instances.
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Exhibit A: see how Google idly fucks with Firefox by getting it to run around in circles the way you might idly taunt your friends cat with a laser pointer
What is this referring to?
Probably talking about how there was code found in YouTube that makes playing videos slower on Firefox. It was supposedly a bug but I believe this happened recently along with Google declaring war on ad blockers. So obviously a lot of people believe it wasn’t just a bug.
The code specifically looked for “Firefox” in your UA and started a 5 second wait timer. There’s no way it was a bug, you don’t just add idle waits into your website.
I mean I’ve seen some weird workarounds when stuff isn’t loading in when they’re supposed to…
But yeah this is probably not that.
I don’t know if they had some specific thing on their mind, but generally Firefox pretty much needs to do whatever Google wants with the web standards, because Firefox is close to becoming irrelevant (which is a damn shame, I’ve been using that browser for forever).
Also, Google is a (the?) major source of funding for Mozilla, so they have a lot of clout with them.
Wait and see is not ignoring anything though, and have not read a single argument against it. Defederation can happen at any time for any reason in the future, why would you preemptively exclude a potential for ActivityPub to get major recognition?
I’m not excluding the possibility an EEE attempt, and meta’s track record definitely shows they will try. But people using ActivityPub right now won’t stop because a company forked it into their own standard, we are here specifically for the exact opposite. Meta literally has zero influence on any of us, if anything it’s the exact opposite.
Also “learning from history” is a weak argument, every server admin as the possibility to defederate at any moment. When even the slightest misstep is placed, everyone defederates and Meta will live in their own little federated world, boo fucking hoo.
What is EEE? Google insists it’s either an expression or glee, or Electrical and Electronics Engineering.
Embrace, Extend, Extinguish, is a strategy tech companies (and a lot more outside of tech as well) have used to use existing open standard and over time slowly add, adapt and finally take over those standards.
It’s a genuine concern this might happen to ActivityPub and Lemmy by extension by Meta, who is integrating ActivityPub as we speak.
Thanks for the explanation. I can see how this could be a concern, especially with the historical actions of every tech giant, Facebook included
Here you have some arguments then:
Federating with a 10x larger entity that has a ton of very well known names on their list is going to dwarf anything that the fediverse so far has to offer. I‘m not saying in quality but definitely in quantity.
The argument is sound because its the exact same that happens with heroin. Your brain gets flooded with dopamine, you feel as happy as you have never felt in your life and likely will never feel again. The withdrawal symptoms are reported to be cruel. The reason is that „healthy“ amounts of dopamine just dont cut it anymore.
The same happens to people quitting big corpo „social“ media. I felt it and I have read of dozens who felt it as well (Obviously not as hard as heroin but the same mechanic). Now I‘m off the proverbial needle and meta federating is just going to bring us back to old habits. Endless, partly divisive content, potential for pushing ads with the posts and using our reactions for profiling.
Like the frog in the kettle we wont get dystopia tomorrow but like disney pushing their prices 50%, we get it eventually, bit by bit.
If meta ever defederates or limits the capabilities of fediverse instances, thousands of (again) hooked addicts will flock back to them. It’s literally obvious if you have any experience with addiction.
Also, we’ve had this discussion with covid, with climate change, with lgbtq rights, abortion… can we maybe start seeing the pattern here? Its always „not that bad“ while some are abusing and exploiting others and those who call it out have the „woke virus“ and are called fearmongers.
Fearmongering is if the media or the government does it, not people who are actually there using the stuff and suffering under things. That is called asking others for help/to understand.
You forgot profit.
If Meta/threads sees a way to cram ads into their instance(s), they will. If they offer money to others to put ads on their instances, they will. If they make rules or other demands of those making money - like no defederating from Meta/Threads, or requiring federating with other corporate instances, they will. On top of that, you’re going to get people drawn into the fediverse, like influencers, political spammers, more bots, and anyone else that follows that type of social media. Coders will start writing corporate-friendly instance code that will allow individuals (like influencers) to spin up profitable instances quickly that tie right into the corporateverse.
EEE will happen. We can argue about defederating from these corporate instances, but it’s going to be a running retreat.
Maybe hyperbolic. Maybe not. If, of course, if meta/threads finds the fediverse profitable.
I really enjoyed reading this although it is quite dystopian. Very well put. Thank you.
You know that someone with the ability to write like this could always write to the guy who founded mastodon for example (who apparently is on the hype train himself, who knows, maybe he has been paid already. But I got no evidence).
I‘m actually suspecting a lot of the „wait & see“ peeps to be paid actors or „true believers“ that already have a threads account and are working for the takeover.
I’m pretty cynical. I’m a huge sci-fi fan, and enjoy everything from Star Trek, to The Expanse, to William Gibson’s novels. P K Dick, too.
You want to know which futuristic reality they projected is the one in the lead? I can tell you it’s not the gleaming white space stations with hundreds of thousands of humans peacefully engaged in furthering knowledge and exploration.
Nope.
It’s the despotic corporatocracy with the token ineffective government winning. The corporations rule all. Ever read Jennifer Government? Yeah, we’re headed for Gibson’s Sprawl and disparity in a hurry…well, if Climate Change doesn’t get us all first.
So then explain to me, how exactly does this impact you? What about you block the meta instance yourself? You will not see any threads content and will continue to use lemmy/ActivityPub in literally the exact same way.
If corporations get their hooks into the fediverse it will be like putting out fires. Plenty of people out there willing to sacrifice what the fediverse is for a few bucks. I don’t want Threads/Meta to even get a toehold, that shit’s poison.
Do you know how federation works? Because if you did you’d know that ‘corportions get their hooks into the fediverse’ does not mean anything. Defederation and forking of the source code is a click away, the reason lemmy exists is to move away from corporations. Contradicting that would just spawn a new lemmy federation.
Did you read what I wrote? Are you just being stubborn about human nature? Don’t insult me by implying I don’t understand this stuff at least at the surface level. All I’m painting is a potential future, and that future is depended on corporations finding the fediverse worth the effort. If they don’t, NBD. If they do, I can assure you they will grind away at what the fediverse is until it’s shaped like what they want, federation be damned. Like I said, maybe you can carve out a corpo-free area, but that depends on the instance operators wanting to put out the effort and money while corps are potentially waving cash in their direction. Humans are shortsighted and greedy.
dwarf anything that the fediverse so far has to offer
You curate your own feed, if you don’t like seeing posts from that instance, then block it yourself. Like with NSFW instances, I don’t see any in my feed, don’t like them? Block them. For new users there will be instances who have defederated and those who have not. Why should your dopamine addiction be my problem? Advocating for every instance to defederate preemptively is more than counter productive, it’s the very definition of fear mongering.
So no, your argument does not hold up.
If meta ever defederates or limits the capabilities of fediverse instances, thousands of (again) hooked addicts will flock back to them. It’s literally obvious if you have any experience with addiction.
Then we will defederate, people wanting that algorithmic dopamine hit are already getting it, and people in virtual rehab will know to block anything they want.
There is still no argument against the wait and see approach.
Why should your dopamine addiction be my problem?
The same reason our taxes pay for mental health clinics, addiction therapies, methadone clinics and so on…
Because it is the right thing to do.
and secondly, because its not my problem. I‘m just aware of it. This article explains it well. There is a study about it but I can’t find it rn. https://www.marketplace.org/2023/10/10/new-research-quantifies-why-you-want-to-quit-social-media-but-cant/
If you really want to compare social media to drug use, how does the need for decriminalisation fit into this? Don’t limit what people can or can’t do because you fear the outcome. Let everyone (ie users and admins) decide for themselves which platforms they want to see, and give them the tools to do so.
You probably see that you changed gears now, right?
I answered your question. That is why you should care and not jump on the bandwagon.
Just for completeness: i never said its completely the same. I said (and have proof) that social media can be and very often is addictive and keeping a profiting company out isnt keeping the drugs from people. Its cutting the dealer out. Basically the same as legalization if you will.
I agree with the premise that Meta is a horrible company and we pay close attention on how its federation progresses. I still have not seen a single argument that holds any weight, from you as well, against the wait and see approach.
“Because it’s the right thing to do” is not an argument, it’s a statement without anything to back you up. What is right is subjective to everyone.
Also, I have not changed gears, and still firmly believe there’s a lot to be gained. Any concerns you have, I already answered. Anyone has a place in the fediverse, because its core principle is exactly that. Don’t agree? Then block the fucking instance.
There are plenty of arguments. You’re just not listening because you’re likely just some dumb shill getting paid to astroturf for Threads like you assholes always do whenever corporations need your help convincing stupid people online corporate interests are what the majority wants.
Then go ahead, argue, I’m trying to have a civil conversation.
I host my own server to get away from monopolies, I actively support the development of lemmy and ActivityPub, what do you do exactly but detract credibility from your peers do have genuine concerns.
I ignore dumbasses like you and carry on with my life, knowing I can convince everyone else not to listen to you. Ignoring obvious astroturfing is an easy sell.
I ignore dumbasses like you and carry on with my life
Clearly you are not, also having a civil discussion with people who don’t share your point of view is an important life skill, try it out sometime.
So what exactly do you do for this platform except from spreading hate and intolerance?
I can’t wait to post the c/leopardsatemyface threads about all of these hopeless retards who refused to listen to me and even attacked me when I told them the same thing months ago, and then laugh at them when I bounce
No collective action is possible because everyone else is too stupid, immature, arrogant and entitled to humble themselves enough to listen and do what is right.
It’s time for those of us who have noticed the serious problems with federation to build a new platform and move on. Or just build our own separate websites with forums again.
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Not really vibing with you complaining about something minor and petty to give yourself an out from admitting you are doing something egregiously wrong. Bruh.
You’re the one who’s going to suffer by not listening to me. You claim to hold the world to high standards when you refuse to even follow them yourself, instead choosing the convenience of having a website to use rather than being better than that and building something better. And then you have the nerve to pretend to be offended over something.
Grow the fuck up. The fediverse obviously isn’t working and is falling victim to the censorship and regulatory capture you claim to oppose, so it’s time for you to either move on or accept that you’re okay with corporations infecting everything you build so you don’t have to keep expending precious mental energy you’d rather waste on video games.
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I won’t have to yell at you. I’ll just laugh at you while you suffer from the aftermath of your poor decision making, complain and blame everyone else instead of looking in a mirror and taking responsibility for your own choices.
Your platform is deeply, fundamentally broken and the only ones who will suffer from it is you if you choose to dig your heels in to save face instead of curbing your own arrogance for five seconds and admitting you have a problem.
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How exactly? Let’s say they follow the EEE strategy and eventually drop support for ActivityPub. Then it’s exactly the same as it is now. People bring up XMPP but nobody wanted to use XMPP the majority of people were using Google Talk or Facebook Messenger. By using the Fediverse you are already explicitly choosing not to use Facebook or X or Reddit. The large social media companies already have larger user bases and more content and if people here wanted that they’d leave already.
People bring up XMPP but nobody wanted to use XMPP the majority of people were using Google Talk or Facebook Messenger.
Do you realise how hypocritical this is? Using the fediverse is effectively using XMPP in this analogy.
Just compare the 100 million users of Threads vs the 1.5 million MAU of the fediverse.
Threads is the corporate-backed proprietary service (Google talk) and the fediverse is the small network of federated servers hosted mainly by volunteers (XMPP).
By using the Fediverse you are already explicitly choosing not to use Facebook or X or Reddit.
By using XMPP you were explicitly not choosing Google Talk or Facebook Messenger. How is this any different?
The large social media companies already have larger user bases and more content and if people here wanted that they’d leave already.
XMPP users said the same about XMPP. And it was true, to a certain extent. The federated XMPP network is alive to this day, I’m in a few chat rooms and have a few contacts there.
By using XMPP you were explicitly not choosing Google Talk or Facebook Messenger. How is this any different?
Because the majority of XMPP users were Google Talk and Facebook Messenger users. Fediverse users are explicitly using the Fediverse.
XMPP users said the same about XMPP. And it was true, to a certain extent. The federated XMPP network is alive to this day, I’m in a few chat rooms and have a few contacts there.
Aren’t you agreeing with me here? Thats my point effectively nothing changes if Facebook drops ActivityPub.
Petition to make mastodon.social and .online defederate from meta
I see this going only a few directions:
- Threads tries and fails
- Threads succeeds, flexes, annexes
- Equilibrium, and Mastodon/Lemmy become the social network APIs that connect across (like I wish we’d had when G+ was a thing)
My wish is that we could maybe turn this against facebook(mEtA) and actually get threads users to use other instances. Maybe its possible idk i hope so.
Make it as easy, or preferably easier, to sign up for other instances as it is the threads instance. If we can clear that hurdle, we’d have a chance at getting many of them.
This is growth for the sake if it? “Chance we getting many of them”?
No outside and lick some public benches, you’ll have a great chance of getting splinters in your tongue and many of them diseases! Go! you need more! Go!
And of course .world is doing exactly what I expected it to do: it’s going along with Threads integration.
And judging from how it’s been set up and run to function almost exactly like old Reddit, with corporate censoring, PR-style talk from admins, blatant refusal to address and fix serious problems, and monopolizing Lemmy by herding everyone else under its umbrella instead of letting people migrate to niche servers which was the intent of the fediverse in the first place, it stands to reason the .world admins are either working directly for Threads or being paid off by Meta to do this.
It’s time for everyone to just leave and go back to making their own websites again.
That is the beauty of the Fediverse. If you don’t like how an instance is run, you can easily switch to another instance in Lemmy 0.19. We need to think of Lemmy instances as countries with their own laws, culture, and policies. So in my opinion, if you don’t like how an instance is run, you can easily switch to another instance.
Except you can’t, because this is not a technical problem, it’s a political problem everybody is deliberately ignoring because they know it is real and they know of the extremely negative implications of them.
The vast majority of Lemmy traffic is from .world. No matter what instance you’re on, most activities happen from .world and .world content floods the feeds of all the others.
.world insists on federating with Meta.
Therefore NO instance is safe, because you’ll always be forced to deal with it indirectly.
That is the insidiousness of .world I tried to warn you all about.
I fucking told you all .world was monopolizing Lemmy and that it was doing it in a way that it implemented the same kind of soft censorship, favoritism and authoritarianism Reddit imposed on its users, and it was herding everyone toward it in the same way old social media did to users in the 10’s.
And did a single one of you listen to me? Noooooo. You were too busy getting mad that your investment in a new website was being deconstructed and that you were being burdened with the mental labor of investing yourselves somewhere else.
This is happening 100% because you are all the most spoiled, entitled, selfish, lazy dumbasses history has ever seen, and you deserve every ounce of suffering Meta is going to impose on you and the fediverse as a result.
You’ve been warned
Instances that defederate with threads wont see content from threads even on other instances that may federate with them.
As an example here lemmy.ml federates with hexbear and world but hexbear and world dont federate with each other. On lemmy.ml posts world users cant see any comments made from people on hexbear and vice versa
- A post in the view of .world: https://lemmy.world/post/9466410 (282 comments)
- The same post in the view of hexbear: https://hexbear.net/post/1304992 (76 comments)
- The same post in the view of lemmy.ml: https://lemmy.ml/post/9207671 (306 comments)
So they wont have to deal with them indirectly
The fact that this guy’s only rebuttal is “well, just go to tankie instances” is all you need to know.
Didnt say to go anywhere, just said that people on .world cant see content from hexbear on lemmy.ml posts shown by those comment counts above even though lemmy.ml federates with hexbear. (hexbear used since its the best example of a large blocked instance that can showcase this well. Could have also used .world, .ml and beehaw and same point stands)
Same logic would apply to .world federating with threads. People on lemmy.dbzer0 for example wont see content from threads on .world posts or communities even if .world federates with threads
Just wanted to put a counterpoint to you saying people would need to deal with it indirectly which isnt true proven by the above. You dont need to strawman it by making it a different point
Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt.
Since you’re obviously one of the shills arguing in bad faith about it, know that you can’t manipulate everyone into accepting corporate fists up their assholes. We will stop you one way or another.
bring paid off by Meta
If you think Meta cares the least about some little forum with some thousands of users, you are delusional.
Shill harder, and tell me how to get in on that racket. How much is the employee health insurance?
I not even shilling. I have no interest in Threads whatsoever. But you guys are totally delusional.
adam posted more details tonight :) can’t wait honestly. i love how pumped adam is about activitypub and interoperability!
I think we can give facebook/threads the bad end of the bargin IF we have a data protections.
You know how powerful copy-left was for open source? I think we can do the same for Lemmy servers. We can have users agree (formally) that the data on a particular server cannot be used for training llvm’s advertisements, marketing profiles, etc, and make it legally binding.
Even if we don’t federate with them, Meta can still harvest the data so we should add these protections regardless. Maybe there is already something like this and I’m just unaware of it.
If we do add these protections and we ensure that the largest instance (e.g. Lemmy.world) is community controlled, I think it could work well for bringing more content to Lemmy.
You can scrape Lemmy instances for training data without even running an instance.
Yeah, sorry if I’m not great at communicating. That’s exactly what I’m trying to point out when I said:
Even if we don’t federate with them, Meta can still harvest the data so we should add these protections regardless.
That’s the thing, anything public is fair game. This is why Reddit is ruining their API.
It’s not fair game for for-profit bussinesses training LLM’s. That’s part of why Reddit made the move; so that companies would need to pay Reddit for access to the data for legally training models
They changed the terms and made the API pay to use for large volumes of use. People using it to train models have already pillaged what they need and you can get the data prior to APIgeddon elsewhere.
Sure, but it’s still true that there are legal protections we can add that make it not fair game for Lemmy. At best it would be unfair-game (illegal scraping of Lemmy)
A rule for one Lemmy or even the Lemmy app doesn’t mean same rule applies across ActivityPub Federation, if your data federated to my instance, it’s mine too.
What does lemmy.world being the biggest have to do with any of this?
As opposed to a facebook-controlled server being the top search result for Lemmy.
I see why that’s confusing so I edited my comment just now
I think this is the wrong take. If we want Lemmy to be truly community-controlled, we need many small servers, as opposed to the current situation of one server controlling half the userbase. Also, which server is Facebook-controlled? Lemmy.world is in the minority by federating with Threads.
I hope that it doesn’t change the fediverse for the worst. On the one hand there will likely be a lot more willingness for the general populus to dip their toes into the fediverse if meta is adopting it. Lack of fediverse adoption isn’t a technical problem but rather an unwillingness to download another app because it isn’t the hot new thing. I don’t think it will take long for a good chunk of their user base to see that both the threads app and their instance is just objectively a lot worse of an experience than practically anything else you’ll see in the fediverse, and it will shed a lot of light on some really great projects and will almost certainly see a lot of growth in specific areas that the fediverse needs it and there will probably be less of a feeling of “shouting into the void” when you post on mastodon, for instance. but I don’t agree with the decision to allow meta to federate with us.
A lot of people who argue for meta integrating with the fediverse tend to see this as like, “oooh cringe reddit wojak gatekeeping” And I don’t think any of our userbase is trying to gatekeep the fediverse. Ultimately meta is a disgusting company and for profit mega corporations that take advantage of kids don’t mix with “ordinary people trying to make a good platform for themselves and others because they can, no strings attached” To put simply, good community is a very delicate thing and a relatively small userbase like the fediverse being exposed to this much toxicity and pressure from a multi billion dollar company that has its own ideas for this platform doesn’t seem like something we need to expose ourselves to as a community. Something in particular that bothers me about this (so far, at least) is that meta’s ActivityPub “integration” is unidirectional, so as of now it’s using the fediverse to effectively just advertise their platform. There is nothing in their roadmap that inherently suggests that they are planning to add polydirectional integration, which sounds like a very meta thing to do. Isn’t meta an advertising company ? Aren’t there adds on threads ? If threads catches on then so will brands and more advertisers. Will we have a solution to stop ads from appearing on non threads apps? Food for thought. I think it’s a bad idea to poison this flowering community. And that’s exactly what this decision is, no matter how you look at it.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
I was considering starting a mastadon account but I guess I’ll pass. Gonna be interesting to see how this changes the fediverse.
edit: oh double fuck you mastadon users. just go join threads already.
Thing about the Fediverse is that software is just software; what you should care about is the instances. There are a whole bunch of Mastodon instances that have already defederated long ago. A few big ones include mas.to, mstdn.social and troet.cafe; you can find the rest here: fedipact.veganism.social/.
I’m really curious how they will approach this. If you can use threads with any other apps, ads free, won’t people just do that?
Right now, if you want to comment on a non-threads user, you have to leave the app. I doubt this will change unless they’ve figured out a way to control the flow.
So threads is even worse than any FOSS app?
I think federation with Meta will improve Mastodon, and doesn’t affect Lemmy too much. Threads users will be able to post to our groups, but the discussion will be mostly within communities on existing servers.
The worry is if the bulk of discussion happens in Meta’s space. Yes, people will feel like they are missing out if they are on a Masto server defederated with Meta, but there is enough activity from people outside of that to be engaging. On the Lemmy side, (hypothetically) if Facebook Groups were to become like Lemmy communities, I’d be very concerned that most of the discussion would move away from places like here on lemmy.world and other cool servers to Meta’s. Then by the time Meta decides to leave or do something stupid then people will not have a place to go to.
