It was, but actually, gatekeeping as you defined it fits the kind of situation I broadly wanted to refer too. This example is a little extreme, but yeah. Thanks for the definition, btw!

My pleasure, really! Ruth Morris and Kaba are, for me, the two insisting the most on the link between first nations practices of restauration and possible ways to start an abolitionniste strain from there, if you’re interested in these…

As for the movement in general, it started to grow in the 60’s. Mainly driven by professors of law and critical criminology, on the one side, prisoners movements and unions on the other side. A great deal of anarchists, a lot of religious people, a few moral radicalists. Many had a common experience of nazi camps. That may be too simple of an explanation, but some of them explicitly state that to account for their interest in prison and hatred for the penal system.

I don’t know the word “gatekeeping” well but maybe that’s it. I was specifically thinking about a situation I had to witness. Two men, one of them being my friend, celebrating about a political action that went well. Except one of the group, a woman, got caught and was facing prison charges. The two men started to rejoice about how the trial would be a great place for her to claim their ideas in front of the judges and the press, make it a political trial. All this time, the woman was literally trembling for a very good reason : she was afraid of going to jail, she didn’t want that.

This scene made me realize if there’s some kind of collective emancipation to be find somewhere it’s not in this kind of act of purety. People should do what they want and can at a certain point in their lives. Not me forced into becoming the martyrs they don’t want to be because it’s a good thing to do “for the cause”.

Wait what does libertarian mean in English. Because with use two words, “libertaire” and “” libertarian" in French and although I’d gladly identify as the first, I have nothing but contempt for the second.

Among penal abolitionist, there are minimalists and maximalists. To better understand how some abolitionists can think that in some residual cases, a segregative solution may be used, one needs to keep in mind that penal abolitionism wants the abolition of the penal system, i.e. a special form of cooperation between police, courts and prison.

Some others would disagree, though. I would personally disagree, but with fellow abolitionist, I try to keep an open mind and understand we basically strive for the same thing.

One important thing : it is commonly accepted among abolitionists that one is stuck with what tools are at their disposition to seek justice. As such, no abolitionist will ever tell a victim what he or she should do. Even one of the most radical contemporary one, like Mariam Kaba, seeks to set up transformative justice devices for people who don’t want to engage with the penal system for various reasons (for example, secondary victimization)

I would suggest this article as an introduction to penal abolition.

But, to sum some common abolitionist answers, I would say :

• Replace the penal system with an appropriately modified version of civil law (Hulsmann)
• Transformative justice (focus on the needs of the victim, apply peer pressure and other non segregative means of social control on the perpetrator, while taking in account the needs of said perpetrator) (Ruth Morris, Mariam Kana)
• Community mediation with a fallback segregative solution (Christie)
• Tackling the needs of the population to reduce violent crime (all of them)
• The list goes on and on! I can point you to other resources if you’re interested.

• Anyone who says ‘science doesn’t care about your feelings’ likely has a very limited understand of science
• There should be no prison but no penal system altogether
• Vote, don’t vote, do whatever the hell you want but don’t shove it into people’s face
• Aiming to be politically 100% pure and judging those who can’t be as pure boils down to chasing political activism cookies/elo. The only useful thing is doing one’s best.

I just realized that feelings are, in fact, facts. On what level, that would need to be determined.

Oh, not them. I suppose they meant among non-right wingers. I always found quite explicit they aren’t welcome here. Not today, not ever.

Also from H2G2, behold the majestic : " -Perhaps I’m old and tired, but I think that the chances of finding out what’s actually going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say, “Hang the sense of it,” and keep yourself busy. I’d far rather be happy than right any day.

-And are you?

-Ah. No. Well that’s where it all falls down, of course "

I like it even better in the movie, Bill Nighy embodies this sentence perfectly.

Came for the second, stayed for the first

Hmmm. I’ll try to remember this one, thank you, that’s a real gift.

A life lesson I’ll learn one day. Trying my best though, but it’ll take time. Thanks for sharing.

I like it. Remember where it’s from?

Love this one. Used to teach students in political science about the horrible thing that “political ventiloquism” is.

I suppose it’s less about the quote origin and more about what we make it to mean :)

Recently, I learned about a historical quote, from French PM Daladier on his way back from Munich where he knew he gave everything to Hitler.

He got out his plane, expecting to be lynched or thrown oranges at, and people, when he realized people were praising him as a herald of “peace”, let out this magnificent “Ah… what a bunch of idiots”.

It’s beautiful and I can understand why it sticks… Thanks for letting us know!!

Oh and there’s also this one ftom H2G2 :

Slartibartfast: Perhaps I’m old and tired, but I think that the chances of finding out what’s actually going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say, “Hang the sense of it,” and keep yourself busy. I’d much rather be happy than right any day. Arthur Dent: And are you? Slartibartfast: Ah, no. [laughs, snorts] Slartibartfast: Well, that’s where it all falls down, of course

Hmm, you’re right. I first read this sentence for the first time as an epigraph for a violently anti-patriotic, individualistic, fantastic and oniric book which gave me this impression. After a bit of digging, I still think there’s something of my interpretation in the original material (a lettre from Vaché to Aragon from the battlefield), but it’s also a dadaist piece, so not so easy to decipher, in which he wishes for the death of his own generals, somehow talks about killing Germans while wearing a monocle and, all of them soldiers, French and German, being slowly decerebrated. He was fighting and killing although he was still against the war, seemed to be borderline self-destructing, dandy, rebelling, talking multiple times about how war changed him for the worse in both his mind and his body, crippled for life too. He died at 23 from an opium overdose.

So there is certainly more to it. Indeed, he doesn’t say what I implied and seemed to be such a complicated person he might have wrote the quote while thinking it is a good thing, but I suppose my interpretation isn’t totally absurd.

More info :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Vaché

Oh, yeah. There’s another one like this for me, a very short poem I read when I was a teenager :

“Ah, what are they dreaming…? Those who say, say, say… Yesterday I was there, today I was here”

That’s so lovely!

And yet, a WWI soldier uttered that phrase. I suppose he did not share this view of WW1. Or he couldn’t have wrote that.

A while ago, I read a sociology or social psychology study about children and how they were given attention by their teacher at school. The sample was like a bunch of 9yo, 50% girls, 50% boys.

It showed that when the attention given was like 30% for girls, 70% for boys, boys would feel the girls were given unfairly high and constant attention.

The way they’re educated by their parents and, more potently maybe, society as a whole.

Off topic but it needs to be said :

Star wars 7, 8 and 9 aren’t terrible. Or if they are, they are in the same way 4, 5 and 6 were. (we don’t talk about 1, 2 and 3)

Nostalgia is not a synonym for quality.

I’ll dissolve into the force on that hill.

You may resume your ongoing activities.

Voyager on Android, far above all others

Yeah, the mood is a bit different here. We do owls, raccoons, blahaj and Linux. Extra raccoons on weekends, though. I love this place.

I like this conversation very much too. And I like the way you describe your will to volunteer and your conception of the steps ahead.

As for religions, I’m not certain. I can really like and admire people who live and love deeply something in the religious faith. Alone or with others. But communities… I’m not saying social control is bad in itself but this type of social control is rather frightening to me.

And changing… What a topic! Did you ever try to measure the time it takes you to change on a specific aspect? It’s a very strange yet reassuring experience. I used to do this a lot, a bit less nowadays, but for example, I’d write :

“learn to handle praise to be as kind as possible with others, understanding it as” somehow I kinda like something in you" and accept the kindness but be unsettled by the praise itself, or, better, make yourself truly incapable of understanding it as a praise"

in a notebook, because it was a very often present in my thoughts and then, after writing, forget about it. Let things unfold organically without giving it much thoughts. An indeterminate time later, I’d be praised for school performance, for example, and… somehow, in a way I couldn’t fully understand, I both felt I understood the praise and I didn’t really know what to make of it, all the sudden.

Then, a few weeks later, after processing the event, grab my notebook and write : “8 months”.

It’s quite interesting, and gives a little sense of : “Hmmm… this may take quite a time, but let’s see when/how/by which ways I’ll try to get there… or at least somewhere close!”

Thank you for your message!

I’ll try to answer as best as I can. My close friends and family sometimes mock me gently for my attitude, but overall, I think they’re happy with it. Even if they’re trying to help me learn about how to take breaks. I’m listening, but the translation process is quite long.

Being vulnerable with them is hard. But I’m trying my best. I think I’ve been doing it increasingly the last year but that’s never easy. It happens, now, though!

I really don’t think I hold them to these standards. And that’s 'it because they wouldn’t be worthy of these standard, making me a superior being. It’s just that… they have their own sets of standards. Mine are about, err… morals. Theirs can be about creativity, balance or anything else and it would be equally beautiful. Well, if they were terrible human beings, I don’t think we would be friends at all.

As for your last question, yes, I do… I think. I hold them to what I liked in them. Even if I admit people may change, even radically. I… yeah, there’s something in them that I loved. And that thing may very well change in it’s expression, but if at some point I feel it’s totally gone, I may have a hard time remaining friends with them. But I suppose most people react like that?

Regarding your thoughts, well… That’s a tough one.

But a really interesting one as well.

I’m not really sure… I suppose that may be my way to avoid being scared of death while I live ? Imagining the scene and just being like “Well, it’s okay if it ends now, I explored the way I’ve chosen in life as much as I could”. There may be something like that. I imagine it’s more… serene?

I’m not sure - but maybe I don’t see - what parts of life I would miss right now. Because I don’t think I’m… hmm… forbidding myself any specific path I would like to tread with these standards. Drugs? Certain types of illegal acts? Starting over in another country? Why not. Things I don’t want to do, though, like trying to dominate people, I could say I’m preventing myself from that, but really, that’s… contradicting all I want so strongly I’m not even sure who “I” is in this case.

Il not 100% sure about my answer, but your question about death was a very interesting one. And I really appreciate the way you framed it. Thank you!

First, kind stranger, thank you very much for you answer. It’s quite funny that I used to be quite patronizing too until I went through a major depression and became a slightly different person.

And yes I think I see what you mean. My therapist recently told me something quite close, but I’m not sure I’ll find the words to translate it to English. But yes, clearly, I’m trapped in a “overdoing-collapse” cycle I still need to learn to manage in a better way. Although… maybe I’m making progress in this regard, I tend to collapse less and less heavily, and I sometimes take breaks.

The thought you brought up us very interesting, and my own answer us quite simple. To contextualize, I’ve been active in a few community organizations in the past, then it all stopped when I moved to another city. Now, I just happen to like people I sometimes meet and try to behave as I described. But it’s quite close to a normal life too. Closer than before at least.

And so, I met a thought similar to yours a few days ago, an answer came from my heart : “I don’t know. But what I know is that wishing I was something/someone else that the thing/person I am, trying to force myself to do something I currently can’t do is preparing myself for a life of guilt and misery, and likely make my loved ones pay for this guilt and misery. And that can’t be good”.

How does this sound to you? I’m not sure about it, but I’ve sticked with this answer ever since.

Interesting questions, thanks! I’m not sure I feel much when I’m doing well in that project. Not joy or pride for sure. Rather “we’ll, that could have been worse!”.

Bit what I’m almost sure about us the answer to your second question. My goal is unreachable, but pursuing it does bring the most important value : living the way I want to leave. It’s all about preparing for the end. When I’ll die, I just want to be able to say : everything I could do given the circumstances, my own strengths and weaknesses, what I was able to do at a given time, I tried to do it. So I regret nothing. In a way, I’ll die, sure and I don’t believe in any kind of afterlife, but somehow I’ll have lived to the fullest.

Ocd is a nice lead indeed ^^

Ah, yes you’re right. And I think I feel the same. I can strive for perfection and know the best I can do is the best solution within my reach. Then, well, that’s the way to go.

My own philosophy/creed is based on Spinoza. I’ve seen a few parallels drawn between him and stoicism. I’ll definitely read about those. Thank you very much!

You’re right. And I make exceptions for these, I think I wrote it in my first post. When someone is mistreated, there’s no morality, for me, except an intervention, an angry one if need be.

But… There wouldn’t be any contradiction between trying your best to do the right thing and rewarding sex/finding a projets you’re passionate about. Or is there?

Well… If I had a bad day… that’s it. From quitting smoking, I understood this : There’s no virtue in guilt. Guilt will always make thing worse. The best and only thing to do is to fix what makes you guilty and if you can’t, get a good night of sleep.

When I wrote trying to act like a saint, it was a bit ironical, like I was trolling myself. But in practice, well, it looks quite similar.

But I’m trying to keep a calm mind. I learnt froo’ Spinoza a very emancipating way of thinking : “… as much as it is currently on oneself to”.

I’ve felt jealousy two times I think. Well. It means in the context I was in, given all the determinations of the situation, I could not feel anything beside jealousy. Then I’ll try to change the situation, playing on whatever parameters I can, to diminish the jealousy in favor of something else I feel more aligned to. It will or won’t work. If it doesn’t, well, no need to panick or feel guilty, I’ll have to try another way.

To answer your questions, the fear of judgment would certainly qualify. Fear of badness not so much. It’s always “as much as I can”. But some days, I can very little. I’ll try my best to do this very little.

And I don’t judge other people (as long as they’re not bosses, politicians, capitalists, etc). Even if they don’t care about morals as I do, they can still be decent individuals and strive with all their being got something else. Beauty, woodworking, fixing society, music, getting enough money to pay their mother a nice retirement house, becoming skilled martial artists, hiking in the country, finding nice mushrooms. I respect all those and recognize my brothers and sisters in them. My own morally-centered way is just… a way along others, it’s not better but it’s the one I’m drawn to.

Do you see what I mean?

Your last point is… where it all kinds falls off. I’m trying to learn about it. Be careful about myself. 8ve understood that’s what I have to learn, but it will take time. I understood it’s important, thanks to my therapist, thought. Thanks so much for your message!

Hmmm… If I drop a plate and it smashes, I won’t feel much. Maybe a bit pissed for 5 secs if I’m in a hurry. I’ll just take another. If a friends does it, I won’t react in any specific way. In both cases, there’s no… moral question involved for me, I think. Do you think there could be?

I’m striving to be as just and kind as it is possible in a given situation. And sincerely, I truly think I’m doing this for myself. Well, it’s complicated since I’m also the kind of person who tries to please everyone he loves. But… I feel my reward is not any praises, praises are bland, they don’t understand what is at play. Not points but searching for the best behavior, nourishing the best ideas, giving minimal place to the others.

I sincerely think I’m not considering myself better or worse than anyone. My way is a moral one. A certain of moral, as well. So that’s what I strive for. I totally admit other people could strive for something else entirely and I wish them luck in this, except if it’s toxic and power hungry.

So since I very rarely compare myself to others, the question of my value compared to theirs makes no sense for me. The question of my own value to my own eyes either. I am. I don’t have to prove anything to anyone, even to myself. Being us enough.

But I find your answer very delicate, wise and kind so thank you very much for writing this, truly!

I can’t rule out pride being part a factor, it would be presomptuous, but I don’t feel that way. For a simple reason : I’m kinda unable to feel good or bad about myself. I can’t hold myself in high or low regard.

My impression, but maybe I’m wrong, is that I strive for some things and want to realize them fully. But other people may strive for something else entirely. It’s… hard, if not impossible to compare, don’t you think? I think I feel that way.