Please go into lots of detail - some of us are taking notes!
So, it’s not just theoretical for me. I left the US earlier this year and moved to Iceland. Planning started almost a year before that. It is hard for Americans to move to a lot of European countries, and Iceland isn’t an exception.
I hired an immigration attorney in Iceland to help make sure I did everything correctly. That cost about $10k as a retainer. It was worth every penny. If you’re taking notes, that’s pretty much the only one you need. Every country has different rules and laws regarding Americans moving to their country. And just like in America, if you have an issue with the law, you need to hire an attorney. They will help you understand every relevant law that exists that applies to you that may very well not be available in English. Hire a local expert.
I’m not very young, so I paid to move my stuff here. I also paid to move my electric vehicle because gas costs the equivalent of about $10 per gallon, plus there are some serious CO2 taxes here. That cost about another $20k. About two thirds moving the stuff, and one third moving the car.
In retrospect, moving the stuff was a good idea. I have lots of things that are just incredibly hard to get here, or take forever to get if you want them. And I saved enough money to be worth it. If you look at something like a KitchenAid mixer, it costs the equivalent of $1k here. If I sold my old one for used price and bought a new one here, I’d lose most of a thousand bucks. So you only need to do that a few times to make moving your stuff worth it.
I also saved money on importing my car over just buying a new one, but it was such a fucking hassle that if I were to do it again, I’d have just bought one here. I didn’t save enough to make it worth it.
I’m not sure how useful my experience will be now. When I started talking to my immigration attorney, I explained that it seemed likely to me that after trump was reelected that Americans were going to panic and rush for the exits. I felt that it was likely that the countries would respond by doing exactly what America does: freak out about having too many immigrants and change the rules to make it harder to get in.
Based on a recent conversation with my attorney, it seems that I was right. The rules have changed enough that the path that we used for residency has now been more more seriously restricted. The attorney’s office was inundated with requests from Americans and they were working 12+ hour days for a few months just trying to respond to all the requests.
I know some folks have strong feelings that people should stay and fight. But I feel like we have fought the good fight for a long time. That went all the way from starting non-profits, to being involved locally, and all the way to running for public office. I’m not interested in identifying myself too much, but I will say that that the person we lost that election to was openly known to have been fired previously for having embezzled money, but voters didn’t care because they got to vote for team ® in our red state.
So from my perspective, there is a cancer that is eating America. I’ve tried hard to remove it. I’ve tried hard to treat it. Ultimately, it seems to have metastisized to the point that it is incurable. You can either keep up with the radiation and chemo and be miserable until you die, or you can stop treatment and do your best to enjoy the time that is left.
For me, moving to Iceland is my version of stopping treatment to enjoy what life I have left. And if you want to fight to the bitter end, or if you want to search for a better life in another country, I wish each and every one of you the very best on your journey.
I’m glad you had the means to make it out.
The vast majority of Americans, sadly, do not.
American here. Can confirm; do not have $30,000. I just managed to scrounge up $5500 for the minimum possible downpayment on a house in northern Maine; the bluest, closest to Canada place, where people like to mind their own business and not fuck with anyone else for no reason. The Canadian escape route is real, though.
I do hear good things about Portugal. I was thinking Spain, but they seem to be having their own issues right now. This timeline is definitely off the rails.
There were some very fucked up things happening in our very red state, both in general and to us in particular. We had considered something similar, like moving to Maine or Vermont. These things happened just at the right time in 2024 that it was obvious that trump was going to win, but we still had time to plan to get out before he did.
We figured if we were going to go through the hassle of moving far enough away that any friends or family were going to fly to come vist us, that just moving to a blue state wasn’t good enough. We figured that when trump was reelected that even blue states wouldn’t be safe enough.
And believe me, I am well aware of how fortunate I am, because I was not always so fortunate. I realize that not everyone can do it. There were a couple of women married to each other that lived near us that were scared as hell, but they couldn’t afford to move to any of the places they were researching.
I researched Canada thoroughly, and I think I even (used to, before trump’s shenanigans) qualify for expedited citizenship. I also work remotely, for a global company, and will just keep my job. Unfortunately there were just too many costs involved, and I couldn’t foot the bill. It sucks, because you get a lot more house for a lot fewer dollars up there. I haven’t given up though. But it’s at least a year or two down the road.
Canadas housing situation is worse than the US I thought, at least in the places most people live.
I can’t really speak to that. I can only speak to the fact that the houses I was looking at were what I would consider a very good value for the money, at least compared to what you can get in the US these days.
Good luck then!
do
Even if a Democrat got reelected the bbb ensures that it makes it look like the DEms are at fault considered the cuts will be in act after the elections, and then you have the D being complicit to the whole takeover by the GOp as well
I know some folks have strong feelings that people should stay and fight
As someone who thinks that. Sounds like you already fought your fight. And if you already tried it’s fair enough to move on.
Thanks. I care a lot about liberty and freedom. I think they come with duty and responsibility. Even though we are anonymous strangers on the internet, I want you to know that I respect everyone who stays and fights either because they cant leave or they choose not to. I hope you all win. I can still vote in federal elections, and I will continue to do so.
Já maður, Bandaríkin sökka velkominn til landsins.
Takk fyrir.
Bombandi, já maður! Velkomin/n!
Má ég spyrja: Hvers vegna Ísland? Hvernig gengur að læra tungumálið? Hvernig gengur að finna vinnu? Nærðu að vingast við fólk?
(Feel free to respond in English, it’s a bitch of a language to learn)
Ok, without cheating, I can read:
_____, yeah man! Welcome.
May I ask, why Iceland? How goes learning the language? How goes finding work? Something something with people?
So, Iceland is rated top 5 in pretty much every happiness or quality of life rating there is. They are still focused on freedom and education of people, so hopefully the descent into fascism is much further away. Also, I have some allergies that are causing other problems, so moving to a place with many months of no pollen was a good thing for me. That and the northern lights make the winter a positive for me, not a negative.
Learning the language is hard, as you say. I’ve been very lucky to move to a place and make friends with a lot of people who are helping me learn a lot. They have patience with me and repeat things slowly. I try to pick up a few words a day. I am maybe at the level of a toddler. I can pick out enough words and read body language well enough to get the context, but I can’t really make sentences well. And all of the people helping me learn is a double edged sword. They don’t want to act like talking to a toddler all day, so we end up speaking English a lot.
The work thing is turning out pretty ok. I might be able to get a bit of consulting gig going, or I may look for a remote job in Europe. Maybe both. I’m very fortunate to have money enough to pay cash for a decent house and have money enough to live off of for a few years once I don’t have rent to pay, so that hasn’t been as much of a priority for me. This has been more of a vacation for a bit.
So I cheated to find out the last question: Do I manage to make friends with people? Yes! This has been the biggest surprise. Most sources that we read on the internet told us that as a foreigner, wed always be on the outsiders. The perspective that we read is that everyone is everyone’s frændi, and we’re just always going to be on the outside. Perhaps we got very lucky, but it seems that we’ve found a way to become a part of the local community. It’s a little village in the north, so it’s perhaps better to make friends than in the capitol. They mostly seem to be happy to see people actually moving in instead of out.
Æðislegt! Gaman að heyra!
Yeah the friend thing is always tricky but if you’re open (as you clearly are) there’s always a community to be found with some tenacity!
Glad to have you 🤘
Ireland. I’m a firm believer that if you move to a region that speaks a different language, you need to make a genuine effort to learn that language. After having 3 years of foreign language (including a year of Gaelic when I lived in Ireland as a child for a year), I know it’s not my thing, so an English speaking country is a requirement for me. Ireland is gorgeous, and still in the EU. Scotland would also be top of the list if they split from the UK and joined the EU.
We’re thinking Scotland. There’s some real nice homes for reasonable prices. My wife’s already a UK citizen so that helps.
Not much, though - I’m English, and we worked out it would cost £20k for the various visas. On top of that, you need to pay an NHS premium, even though you would already be paying for it through the usual national insurance deduction from your salary. It will also take 10 years before they are a citizen.
We decided to stay here (Germany). Less costs and, sadly, better health care.
For anyone who’s thinking UK, I’d advise not - we’re about 4-5 years behind you in terms of imminent fascism and whilst there’s still technically a chance to avert it, its very unlikely - especially since Starmer is being even more awful than the Tories.
Just to add: The xenophobic riot last year…
Especially a bad idea if you are Muslim, Arab, or just look “Middle-Eastern”.
Or if you’re transgender (it’s called “TERF Island” for a reason)
Also, God, the weather
The weather is the main reason I’d want to go there. I prefer dreary.
UK was formerly on my shortlist but was removed a few years ago.
Vote for Ed Davie if you get the chance.
I’ve always thought there’s two kinds of Americans; the ones who have a passport and the ones who don’t.
If they’re willing to explore the world and recognise the US isn’t the whole universe I find them to be totally fine.
Whether or not someone has a passport is almost entirely based on the amount of wealth that person or their family has.
Where I grew up, almost nobody traveled abroad because nobody could afford it. Or at most, back in the day they would drive to Canada because you could cross without a passport.
For some reason getting a passport is like $200, plus whatever it takes to get the required supporting documents (eg: birth certificate, the photo). That’s not much by many metrics, but a lot of people in the US just don’t have $200 to spend.
In 2016 there were tens of million of Americans who couldn’t absorb a sudden $400 expense without going further into debt.
That number’s probably grown significantly since.
Drop in the bucket compared to the cost of travel. Your point still stands though.
It’s also convoluted process too. If you never had passport or haven’t renewed in like 15+years you have to reapply, and then set up a whole appointment, most are booked months it not longer in advanced and only specific location USPS in your area. The scientists currently emigrating to Europe are already well off individuals( that’s why MDS and scientists are considered well off peoples degrees), certainly not poor
Difficult to get a visa to other countries without a passport.
There are also Americans who had a passport of a different country before they naturalized
Non-murican - strongly feel preference should be given to genuine refugees fleeing war, famine etc where they have absolutely no ability to influence their fate other than escape. The US is a failed democracy but the people there have barely begun to challenge their government compared to what we have seen elsewhere in the world. And there is still refuge available in blue states. US citizens need to stand up and fight. Then if they fail, only then do they get to go in the queue with the genuine humanitarian refugees. I don’t like queue jumpers. Sorry but impingement on your civil liberties doesn’t compare with families in war torn parts of the world living in fear fear of having their limbs blown off every night.
Ofcourse business around the world would like to cherry pick talent for in demand jobs. They prefer not to invest in developing local people when they can import experienced talent for less. So people with in demand skills will get in that way, not as refugees.
I don’t mean to naysay but this isn’t reduced civil rights people are fleeing. The US is building concentration camps and has recently approved expanding their budget for ICE (originally immigration enforcement, now a gestapo analogue) such that it is larger than most world militaries.
This is naziism people are fleeing. This is death camps people are fleeing.
And those people fleeing genuine threat should be welcomed as refugees. American voting citizens however, need to get their assess out on the streets and actually start challenging the police, ICE and government, instead of fleeing what they created.
The kind of american that usually comes to Mexico is very nice, very welcome. Maybe the exceptions are the very loud and self absorbed ones that go to resort locations and act like they’re better than everyone there.
As long as people want to integrate and cooperate they are more than welcome.
Now, the sad part is the gentrification that comes with a lot of people moving and outpaying rent vs the locals. Now the average cost of living in Mexico city is about 50% higher than the average salary, and about 100% higher than the median salary. Another very negative thing is that now a lot of locals have to communicate in english because American people will come and not learn spanish over multiple years living here. There are zones where everything is in english now. It’s okay speaking english, it’s not okay expecting english from everyone.
So a few pointers:
- Integrate, pay taxes, consume locally
- Try and move into already gentrified places, avoid displacing more people
- Push for social policy, increased affordable living spaces, invest in the country where you move into to improve the locals’ life
Be friendly, but that’s always
La ciudad de México is what I’ve been thinking of. seems like a fabulous place. doubt I could take the heat and I’m more likely to end up in Asia, but Mexico City and Toronto are top contenders
Luckily mexico city is not actually that hot, quite humid though
yeah I’d prefer -30 over +30 and humid
Now the good thing with humidity is that refrigeration works wonders, and in Mexico Mini Splits are super cheap, as is electricity
Moving somewhere and not knowing the language is extremely common. My mother has been in the USA for 40 years and speaks very little English. She focuses on Spanish speaking neighborhoods and businesses.
Many of her friends have also been here decades and speak zero English too.
It’s inconsiderate at best to expect people to speak your foreign language and get angry that people don’t speak it. That’s more of my point.
And even that, after gentrifying an area no longer welcoming non-english speaking people or treating them as second class is worse
I absolutely agree. I didn’t make my point of learning the native language. I’m annoyed by native Spanish speaking immigrants purposefully not learning English while living in the USA for decades.
It seems it also happens with Americans that migrate to other countries.
I’m German and as far as I’m concerned the people who want to flee the current US administration are exactly the type of people you want to welcome with open arms.
As a trans woman I might need somewhere to go and I desperately hope that when that day comes someone like you is in charge if deciding if I get to stay.
the ones that cant stop sucking off trump, arent even leaving usa anyways(trump supporters/liberterians), they are too inside thier bubble. scientists and mds and engineers have much more options than people with non-graduate degrees unfortunately.
Are you specifically talking about north americans of european descent? As if Germany isn’t dipping right into their pre WW2 culture with Merz as chancellor and AfD getting more votes each year 🤡
Deutschland den Deutsche, Ausländer Raus
Canadian here. I’ll welcome anyone who voted against Trump.
Those who voted for Trump or didn’t vote at all can die in a ditch.
Thank you for that. For me, if I make a big move, especially out of country, I gotta go somewhere warm. I live in the mountains of WV and last winter nearly ended my life, for real. I was just talking this through with a friend- is it better to flee or stand our ground against the fascists?
deleted by creator
Ok dude, I don’t have time to deal with your mental illness.
The Netherlands probably, but with the massive grain of salt that I suspect that choosing a “ideal place to live” without actually having been to that place is likely to result in a skewed idea of what a place is truly like, and as I’ve never been outside the United States I have that issue when thinking about any other country. I also doubt they or anywhere else that might make my list of ideal places would want me, seeing as I’m just some random factory worker without any especially rare skill.
To me The Netherlands is just weed, bikes, trains, and canals. Sounds great.
I’m also fairly sure it’s not going to be as great as it sounds. And the language will probably be annoying and not very useful elsewhere.
treadful@lemmy.zip Netherlands also has a xenophobia problem. It’s not as progressive as people think, at least not anymore.
That being said, it’s not a bad country. Also one of the easiest EU countries for Americans to immigrate to.
Also one of the easiest EU countries for Americans to immigrate to.
What makes it easy?
treadful@lemmy.zip well, easy is relative, but it’s this treaty: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT
I went to Norway. Big recommend. That said, I refuse to call myself an expat or use the term expatriate. I am an immigrant. I think it is weird that white westerners get a special word and everybody else are filthy immigrants.
It’s semantics but the difference between expat and immigrants is an expat intends to return to their home country some day, where an immigrant does not.
it’s racism
if a westerner works with plans to return they are called expat, if it’s a non western, they are called migrants labour or foreign workers and are treated like shit.
they dont like to be called immigrants, because then they would have to be labeled like the “brown people” they say have hawking over.
Yes, but connotatively it is just a marker of privilege. Especially here, since what we’re talking about is immigration, not temporary work.
To me expat always referred to people that only stay temporarily, mostly sent abroad by the company they work at. As opposed to a migrant that is meaning to stay permanently (and eventually gains citizenship).
TIL the definition differs regionally (see wiki) and mostly not as I thought it was.
Californian - i want us, oregon, and washington to join canada.
It would be a dream if CANZUK happened, then it was joined by California and Cascadia. We could call it CACACANZUK.
That said, you would already be a powerful nation without joining anyone else. Don’t wait for us to get organised.
I feel like if CA were to leave the US it would join Mexico, not Canada
Rejoin
fuck no lol joining mexico is submitting yourself to the rule of cartels. Theyre super corrupt.
Mexico == cartels???
the cartels hold massive influence over the govt, straight up killing their legislators in significant numbers at times.
There is serious violence, but CA has law enforcement in place with experience dealing with the Cartels. The power they weild in Mexican Government would be outweighed by the 30% increase in population and the doubling of the size of the Mexican Economy.
Of course the violence that would be required to result in CA leaving the union might result in destruction of that economy. Hard to say.
Here in Canada we’re trying to catch America’s brain drain. We especially need doctors quite desperately.
doctors
How’s the demand for nurses? I’ll be finishing up nursing school in less than a year! :D
Or support staff? I’m a surgical tech now, and some of my coworkers (other techs, schedulers - bottom of the medical food chain, but still with specialty experience) feel trapped here by their lack of higher education.
Nurses and caretaker staff “Pflege” are needed here in Germany too, but not sure how viable the pay is.
Depends. I know some nirses that work as “OP Schwestern” and they make good money.
But you can not compare a german Krankenpflegerin/Krankenpfleger with an US Nurse.
Afaik pay isn’t that bad, it’s working conditions that suck.
Check out bchealthcareers.ca for an example of what is being done to encourage medical professionals to make the move to Canada. This site is B.C. specific but it includes doctors, nurses, and allied health professions.
As a member of the CAF, if the US Armed Forces are getting rid of LGBTQ folks, I would be proud to welcome them as my comrades in arms.
Canadian Air Force?
Canada is certainly on my list of hopeful places.
Not quite. CAF is Canadian Armed Forces. The Air Force, specifically is the RCAF.
Thanks
Honestly lots of Western Europe, but personally: Iceland, Germany, Finland, Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, Belgium, etc.
Objectively places like Spain, Portugal, Malta, etc. would work.
I have no delusions of ever making it as an immigrant in any of these countries. You need a lot of money.
Or have a MD with a specialist or a scientist with a in demand field that is. But I suspect doctorate levels people are quite far and few between, which is why Europe is even entertaining them. They don’t want BS, or MS holders there’s too many of them and they are the ones in the most need for a career or jobs, because usa have very low prospects, even before trumps attack on stem funding.
No, you need to find some job and rent a room
As a US citizen you have right to work in most of those countries. Without that right, it would be a different storyAs a US citizen you have right to work in most of those countries.
Nope. Absolutely none of those appear to allow working with just a US passport.
Without that right, it would be a different story
… Because I think it is.
But, to be fair, I only did a little searching. If you have a reference - like a page from the gov of Denmark saying “Yanks are cool: come in and get to work” - I’d love to be proved wrong. My nephew needs to see the world, and working is how it’s done.
Yeah, I also checked and I was wrong. Not needing an entry visa is nice, but in order to work legally, one needs to find a job before (or there are talent pathways in some countries, but they would work for most other countries).
I am just one of the “non-EU” (and non-US of that matters) people, whom Denmark doesn’t like to have, but I’m still living there waiting for my perm residence.
It’s always easier to think: “aah, other people have it better!” :)
As a US citizen you have right to work in most of those countries.
No you don’t, you need a visa to be able to work here, depending on your area of expertise companies might sponsor your visa.
I suspect most of the fields are stem or at least niche
Yes, from some experience even on those fields you sort of need to proof that you tried to find someone in your own country and couldn’t find one.
Sure, but finding a job and housing in most of the places I listed is quite challenging, often even for citizens of those countries, but especially immigrants.
Checked and found that US citizens don’t have inherent right to work in EU - it’s only easier to travel, not to settle down.
And speaking of renting - it really depends. If we’re talking about Copenhagen, it is expensive, the market is broken (thanks AirBnb), and it’s really hard and expensive to move in. I burned through my savings and owed some money to my employer before I could invite the rest of my family into a freshly-rented apartment. But if we’re talking about “a bed under a roof”, it’s super easy to find a room on FB Marketplace, and live with a couple of other internationals.
So if it’s just about “getting out of US” (crazy, I never thought it would be a thing, I’m sorry for them), then finding work is a must, but in a big city you usually can find something. It’s only hard to find something nice and permanentyes, permanent employment that allows you to stay in the country is a must. As a trans person in the US, it’s been difficult to know whether to give up my career and whole life for basically constant instability and risk living as an immigrant in another country, especially when trans rights are getting stripped everywhere else too. Getting trans healthcare in Europe is not always such a breeze even for citizens.
Still, I appreciate your optimism and willingness to see the possibilities- that’s important to know.
Denmark is fine for trans - nobody cares who you are, in a way that you have the same rights.
right, but when comparing my chances of economic survival, somewhere like Prague seems even more likely to work than Denmark just from a job market competition perspective, and Prague seems equally “idgaf” in attitude towards trans people (not that this kind of tolerance is the same as acceptance, non-discrimination, or integration)
That is not as easy as it sounds, it would be the same situation for immigrants going to the USA as they would if they try any European country
As a Canadian, it appears to me that most of the Americans who want to move here are doing so because they like and support the way that Canada is currently functioning, and that’s fine by me.
Immigrants who want the country to change for them are problematic. I almost think that first generation immigrants shouldn’t get to vote, it should be a gift to their children rather than themselves. That shouldn’t even need the child to be born in Canada, I’d actually be fine with anyone who goes through at least half their primary education (so let’s say grade 7 or younger) here being included if they moved here with their parents when they were younger.
i think if i immigrated to Canada I’d fight for First Nations rights and want it to change in favor of that
Why would you assume that every single (non American) immigrant that comes here would want to change the way Canada is run? Considering the vast majority come here because they like the way it’s run. This is such a wild take.
Besides, the politics of this country were built on genocide and do not reflect the values of the land’s original caretakers that were here for tens of thousands of years. But I guess those first immigrants were correct in changing the way things are run here and so we should be upholding their values and their values only??
I hate the original people argument. There is no land on this earth that wasn’t conquered multiple times. Even the first nations in North America warred against each other and took land from each other many times before the Europeans showed up. It wasn’t a giant happy campfire singalong for 10,000 years.
Okay, but given your original comment that the people who “are already here” (eg. Canadian citizens) should be the only ones to vote, you do seem to be lending weight to the idea that people who were already here should be making the decisions.
Do you think that the first immigrants (settlers) to come here from England and France should also not have been allowed to decide on how the country was run? Or is it only new immigrants that shouldn’t be allowed a voice in government? What’s the cutoff?
I think they took the land, just like everyone else has been taking land for all of human history, and applying modern government concepts to something that happened a few hundred years ago is stupid.
We can try to prevent future injustices, we can fix wrongs that occurred in the lifetimes of people who are alive (like reparations for residential schools) but trying to go back and change things for anything done prior to anyone alive existing is stupid.
So the cutoff is “is anyone still alive that it directly happened to” and descendents do not count.
I wish I’d married a Canadian in 2004 when the getting was good, haha.
I even speak some French.
